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Assuredy Dr. Holmes (Re Wolfram)

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Nick Thompson

Assuredy Dr. Holmes (Re Wolfram)

Steve,

It wasn't my argument and therefore I am glad of a refutation.

I can think of many, MANY places where that refutation needs to be heard.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
[hidden email]
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/
[hidden email]

> [Original Message]
> From: Stephen Guerin <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Date: 12/9/2004 2:38:59 PM
> Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Assuredy Dr. Holmes (Re Wolfram)
>
> Nick writes:
>
> > "If simple laws", the argument runs, "are capable of producing
disorderly
> > effects through small changes in the initial conditions on which
> > they work, then aren't our attempts to discover the laws that govern our
> > complex world hopeless.
>
> It seems that statement conflates Complexity with Chaos. I might revise
the
> statement in terms of Complexity as:
>
> "Simple laws of interactions of initially random components are capable of
> producing spontaneous complex order".
>
> Granted, these same systems can be tuned to chaotic regimes, but I don't
see

> why that makes explaining complex order with complexity as necessarily
> hopeless. It just means that, in addition to describing the interaction
> laws, you also have the secondary task of characterizing the phase space
> that separates the ordered from the chaotic (basins of attraction). And in
> fact, knowing this phase space allows you to make a lot of testable
> predictions...
>
> -Steve
> ____________________________________________________
> http://www.redfish.com [hidden email]
> 624 Agua Fria Street office: (505)995-0206
> Santa Fe, NM 87501 mobile: (505)577-5828
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nicholas Thompson [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 11:25 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [FRIAM] Assuredy Dr. Holmes (Re Wolfram)
> >
> >
> > Well, I have only been a Wolfram nut for a week now, so the rest of you
> > have a head start on me, but....
> >
> > It seems to me you can do anything with it you can do with a metaphor,

and
> > to me, metaphors are EVERYTHING in science. (But I come from a part of
> > science (evolutionary stuff) where the role of a metaphor is
dramatically
> > obvious).
> >
> > My fear a bout Wolfram (and complexity theory in general) is its
> > use as the
> > foundation for antiscientific irrationalism.
> >
> > "If simple laws", the argument runs, "are capable of producing
disorderly

> > effects through small changes in the initial conditions on which
> > they work,
> > then aren't our attempts to discover the laws that govern our
> > complex world
> > hopeless. And if hopeless for their stated purposes, then what are our
> > REAL purposes is seeking lawful relations in nature. After all,
> > isn't the
> > pursuit of knowledge just an unseemly mix of ideology and self
> > aggrandizement?"
> >
> > Darwinism is either
> >
> > 1. An attempt on the part of the devil to subjugate Christianity
> >
> > 2. An attempt on the part of men to subjugate women
> >
> > 3. An attempt on the part of the ruling classes to
> > subjugate the workers.
> >
> > 4. All of the above.
> >
> > (Pick one)
> >
> > NIck
> >
> > Nicholas S. Thompson
> > Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> > Clark University
> > [hidden email]
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/
> > [hidden email]
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: <[hidden email]>
> > > To: <[hidden email]>
> > > Date: 12/9/2004 11:00:19 AM
> > > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 18, Issue 8
> > >
> > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to
> > > [hidden email]
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > [hidden email]
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > [hidden email]
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. 2. EdgeVideo: PAUL BLOOM (Owen Densmore) (Nicholas Thompson)
> > > 2. A Massachusetts Psychologist in King Wolfram's court
> > > (Nicholas Thompson)
> > > 3. Re: A Massachusetts Psychologist in King Wolfram's court
> > > (Roger E Critchlow Jr)
> > > 4. Ride to SFI (Nicholas Thompson)
> > > 5. wolframspam (Robert Holmes)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 13:08:07 -0500
> > > From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [FRIAM] 2. EdgeVideo: PAUL BLOOM (Owen Densmore)
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> > >
> > > Owen,
> > >
> > > In Re Paul Bloom, can our friendship tolerate a rant concerning Paul
> > Bloom?
> > >
> > > !@#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@!@#$%^&^%$%&*(
> > >
> > > There, I said it.
> > >
> > > Now, on a more reasoned note.
> > >
> > > Consider the following argument:
> > >
> > > Lightning is either
> > >
> > > Thor's anger visited upon the earth
> > >
> > > or
> > >
> > > Just an electrical discharge.
> > >
> > > We know that lightning is more than just an electrical discharge.
> > >
> > > Therefore it must be Thor's anger visited upon the earth.
> > >
> > > compare that with
> > >
> > > The soul is either
> > >
> > > an ephemeral, unmeasurable, insubstantial substance that
> > however guides
> > > our material being
> > >
> > > or
> > >
> > > just a chunk of gunk somewhere North of the Optic Chiasm
> > >
> > > We know that the soul is not just a chunk of gunk somewhere
> > North of the
> > > Optic Chiasm
> > >
> > > THEREFORE, it must be an ephemeral, unmeasurable,
> > insubstantial substance
> > > that however guides our material being
> > >
> > > Paul Bloom!!!! <mutter, mutter, snarl, snarl>
> > >
> > >
> > > Is WEDSTECH happening to day?
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > >
> > > Nicholas S. Thompson
> > > Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> > > Clark University
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/
> > > [hidden email]
> > >
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: <[hidden email]>
> > > > To: <[hidden email]>
> > > > Date: 12/8/2004 11:00:23 AM
> > > > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 18, Issue 7
> > > >
> > > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today's Topics:
> > > >
> > > > 1. HUM 202 -- Toward a Literacy of Cooperation (Owen Densmore)
> > > > 2. EdgeVideo: PAUL BLOOM (Owen Densmore)
> > > > 3. RE: HUM 202 -- Toward a Literacy of Cooperation (Gus Koehler)
> > > > 4. Re: Brain grown from rat cells flies jet (Mike Kruchoski)
> > > > 5. Free Programming and Computer Science Books (Owen Densmore)
> > > > 6. Re: Free Programming and Computer Science Books (Tim Densmore)
> > > > 7. Re: Free Programming and Computer Science Books (Fred Seibel)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:22:15 -0700
> > > > From: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] HUM 202 -- Toward a Literacy of Cooperation
> > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Friam <[hidden email]>
> > > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> > > >
> > > > Interesting class at Stanford. Note Howard Rheingold's presence:
> > > > http://shl.stanford.edu/hum202.html
> > > >
> > > > Owen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 2
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:45:02 -0700
> > > > From: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] EdgeVideo: PAUL BLOOM
> > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Friam <[hidden email]>
> > > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> > > >
> > > > Interesting discussion on "dualism" via development psycology:
> > > > http://www.edge.org/video/56k/bloom.html
> > > >
> > > > Owen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 3
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 08:58:31 -0800
> > > > From: "Gus Koehler" <[hidden email]>
> > > > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] HUM 202 -- Toward a Literacy of Cooperation
> > > > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
> > > > <[hidden email]>
> > > > Message-ID: <000101c4dc7d$fbde5050$6401a8c0@VALUEDD3F7D0D1>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > > >
> > > > Check out this web site which provides a different view of Darwin:
> > > > http://thedarwinproject.com/about/about.html
> > > >
> > > > Loye has a book, downloads, and CD available that identifies where
> > Darwin
> > > > discusses cooperative values.
> > > >
> > > > http://thedarwinproject.com/library/library.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Gus
> > > >
> > > > Gus Koehler, Ph.D.
> > > > Principal
> > > > Time Structures
> > > > 1545 University Ave.
> > > > Sacramento, CA 95826
> > > > 916-564-8683
> > > > Fax: 916-564-7895
> > > > www.timestructures.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]

> > > Behalf
> > > > Of Owen Densmore
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:22 AM
> > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Friam
> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] HUM 202 -- Toward a Literacy of Cooperation
> > > >
> > > > Interesting class at Stanford. Note Howard Rheingold's presence:
> > > > http://shl.stanford.edu/hum202.html
> > > >
> > > > Owen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ============================================================
> > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > > Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe
> > > > Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, etc.:
> > > > http://www.friam.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 4
> > > > Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 10:41:36 -0700
> > > > From: Mike Kruchoski <[hidden email]>
> > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Brain grown from rat cells flies jet
> > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > > > <[hidden email]>
> > > > Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041207103646.02314598@192.168.1.155>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, the problem was it could only fly through a maze to find the
> > cheese.
> > > >
> > > > However, the real concern is: Can they commission them as Air Force
> > > pilots???
> > > >
> > > > At 08:15 AM 12/6/2004 -0700, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Wow
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > ><http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/05/
> > wbrain05.x
> > >
> > ml>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/05
> > /wbrain05.
> > > xml
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Dr. Robert Holmes
> > > > >
> > > > >PO Box 2862, Santa Fe, NM 87504
> > > > >mobile: (505) 310-1735
> > > > >web: <file://www.holmesacosta.com>www.holmesacosta.com
> > > > >============================================================
> > > > >FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > > >Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe
> > > > >Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, etc.:
> > > > >http://www.friam.org
> > > >
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Mike Kruchoski
> > > > Mission Research Corporation
> > > > Albuquerque, NM
> > > >
> > > > 505-768-7630 (phone)
> > > > 505-768-7601 (fax)
> > > > 505-480-5000 (cell)
> > > > 505-853-6525 (ABL SPO)
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 5
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:51:29 -0700
> > > > From: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] Free Programming and Computer Science Books
> > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Friam <[hidden email]>
> > > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> > > >
> > > > We've often discussed downloadable books and articles. This is an
> > > > interesting site devoted to free, downloadable books. Check
> > the links
> > > > on the right side of the page too. I sent them an email about the
> > > > McKay book.
> > > > http://techbooksforfree.com/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 6
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:31:06 -0700
> > > > From: Tim Densmore <[hidden email]>
> > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Free Programming and Computer Science Books
> > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > > > <[hidden email]>
> > > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> > > >
> > > > Not specifically tech related, but this as an absolutely
> > wonderful site.
> > > > http://promo.net/pg/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 7, 2004, at 6:51 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > We've often discussed downloadable books and articles. This is an
> > > > > interesting site devoted to free, downloadable books. Check the
> > links
> > > > > on the right side of the page too. I sent them an email about the
> > > > > McKay book.
> > > > > http://techbooksforfree.com/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ============================================================
> > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > > > Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe
> > > > > Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, etc.:
> > > > > http://www.friam.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 7
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:49:41 -0700
> > > > From: Fred Seibel <[hidden email]>
> > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Free Programming and Computer Science Books
> > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > > > <[hidden email]>
> > > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> > > >
> > > > Have to brag a bit--the author of Practical Common Lisp, the 4th

item

> > > > at the mentioned site, is my son.
> > > >
> > > > It also seems that when you google "common lisp book" his site comes
> > > > back at the top.
> > > >
> > > > One of these days it will be published and will cost money in
> > hardcopy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Fred
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 7, 2004, at 6:51 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > We've often discussed downloadable books and articles. This is an
> > > > > interesting site devoted to free, downloadable books. Check the
> > links
> > > > > on the right side of the page too. I sent them an email about the
> > > > > McKay book.
> > > > > http://techbooksforfree.com/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ============================================================
> > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > > > Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe
> > > > > Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, etc.:
> > > > > http://www.friam.org
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Friam mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 18, Issue 7
> > > > ************************************
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 13:45:22 -0500
> > > From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [FRIAM] A Massachusetts Psychologist in King Wolfram's court
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Cc: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>, stephen <[hidden email]>
> > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> > >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > So, I have gotten to page 541 of A NEW SCIENCE.
> > >
> > > I have passed through the four stages
> > >
> > > "WHA?" "HUH!" "OMIGOD" and finally," I HAVE TO TAKE IT
> > SERIOUSLY."
> > >
> > > I am right now bogged down in the part on thermodynamics and
> > reversibility.
> > >
> > >
> > > Perhaps you CA folks out there could help me with a question.
> > >
> > > Lets define a rule and a set of conditions on which that rule
> > works to be
> > a
> > > reflector when the rule give back the set of conditions that were

given

> > it.
> > >
> > >
> > > Obviously there are some boring reflectors.
> > >
> > > But just as obviously for a CA to be reversible in Wolfram's terms, it
> > has,
> > > at some point to hit a reflector, no?
> > >
> > > Allow me to manufacture some nomenclature here.
> > >
> > > Let the array produced by a rule from S-0 ("step 0") be S+1.
> > So when
> > > we apply a rule to S-0 we get S+1, OK.
> > >
> > > In short hand R(S-0) = S+1 Ok? (the rule applied to S-0
> > gives you S+1.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > For a CA to be reversible, must it not be the case that FOR
> > ever value of
> > S
> > > except the reflector
> > >
> > > R(S+1) = (S-0) ?
> > >
> > > In English, must it not be the case for every step in a
> > reversible CA that
> > > not only does the rule, when applied to the previous step, produce the
> > next
> > > step, but that the rule when applied to the next step, produces the
> > > previous step.
> > >
> > > Since we know already that the rule when applied to the next
> > step produces
> > > the NEXT TO NEXT step, there must be something about the rules of
> > > reversible CA;s that prevent all steps from being relfectors.
> > >
> > > I have totally lost it, havent I?
> > >
> > > NIck
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > > Nicholas S. Thompson
> > > Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> > > Clark University
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/
> > > [hidden email]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 14:01:25 -0700
> > > From: Roger E Critchlow Jr <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Massachusetts Psychologist in King Wolfram's
> > > court
> > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > > <[hidden email]>
> > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > > > All,
> > > >
> > > > So, I have gotten to page 541 of A NEW SCIENCE.
> > > >
> > > > I have passed through the four stages
> > > >
> > > > "WHA?" "HUH!" "OMIGOD" and finally," I HAVE TO TAKE IT
> > SERIOUSLY."
> > > >
> > > > I am right now bogged down in the part on thermodynamics and
> > reversibility.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps you CA folks out there could help me with a question.
> > >
> > > Uh, I'll look at the question later. But, I just received some Spam
> > > from Wolfram today:
> > >
> > > > Now's the time to get your own NKS book and software or get them
> > > > for a friend. We're happy to announce two special holiday
> > > > promotions:
> > > >
> > > > * Stephen Wolfram's 1200-page, 1000-illustration book A NEW KIND
> > > > OF SCIENCE is available for only US $29.95 (33% discount outside
> > > > the US)
> > > >
> > > > * A NEW KIND OF SCIENCE and the NKS Explorer software system for
> > > > Windows and Macintosh are available together for only US $49.95
> > > > (55% discount outside the US)
> > > >
> > > > Order today to ensure delivery in time for the holidays.
> > > >
> > > > Visit http://www.wolframscience.com or call 1-800-965-3726
> > > > (+1-217-398-5151 outside the US and Canada).
> > >
> > > Actually, it's not technically Spam since I did have to
> > register to look
> > > at the online copy of NKS. Anyway, the book is $44.95 at Amazon, and
> > > the Explorer bundle is $95. If you've been waiting for the
> > right price,
> > > I think it's here.
> > >
> > > -- rec --
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 4
> > > Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:17:55 -0500
> > > From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [FRIAM] Ride to SFI
> > > To: "Friam" <[hidden email]>
> > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> > >
> > > Hi, all,
> > >
> > > Is anybody going up the hill to the Temple at five this afternoon or
> > > tomorrow at noon? Is that person passing near the railyards on
> > there way
> > > there. Would that person consider giving me a ride?
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > >
> > > Nicholas S. Thompson
> > > Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> > > Clark University
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/
> > > [hidden email]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 5
> > > Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:42:27 -0700
> > > From: "Robert Holmes" <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [FRIAM] wolframspam
> > > To: "FRIAM" <[hidden email]>
> > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > I'm curious. Can one actually *do* anything with this new
> > science? Y'know,
> > > like accurately model phenomena, or us it to make predictions or any

> > that
> > > stuff that the boring old science can do?
> > >
> > > - rh
> > >
> > > Dr. Robert Holmes
> > >
> > > PO Box 2862, Santa Fe, NM 87504
> > > mobile: (505) 310-1735
> > > web: www.holmesacosta.com
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