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Art is a Lie

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plissaman

Art is a Lie

A’propos Ten Best Texts as fiction. I’m sure no one at Friam holds to the techno-barbarian view that nothing valuable can be gained from fiction. In my opinion the important human values can be illuminated only by fiction. After all, the King James Bible (1611) is about the best thing in fiction the English have ever done.

When told that his work was “untrue”, Pablo* agreed, remarking: “Art is a lie that helps us see the truth”.

This seems a valuable insight.

*Pablo Picasso (1887 – 1968): Sp., Fr. painter. Developed cubism

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Steve Smith

Re: Art is a Lie

Peter -

Well said...

and in a single short paragraph with a single eloquent quote...

- Steve

A’propos Ten Best Texts as fiction. I’m sure no one at Friam holds to the techno-barbarian view that nothing valuable can be gained from fiction. In my opinion the important human values can be illuminated only by fiction. After all, the King James Bible (1611) is about the best thing in fiction the English have ever done.

When told that his work was “untrue”, Pablo* agreed, remarking: “Art is a lie that helps us see the truth”.

This seems a valuable insight.

*Pablo Picasso (1887 – 1968): Sp., Fr. painter. Developed cubism

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Victoria Hughes

Re: > Art is a Lie (er, and a soupçon of fiction)

Steve, Peter, et al et cetera-

Art is a distillation.

Art is a concentrate.

Art helps us see the truth without the distractions.

Been writing my artist statement for a big museum show (a group of eight of us, I am not alone) next year, and am full of Thought on this topic. So take this as you please.

I did not chime in to the fiction+expertise dialogues (and really both were heading to the same arena) despite these topics being right up my alley, due to work demands on my typing time.

But I don't personally accept that a thoughtful person can truly justify a real difference between fiction and fact. I'll agree to a gray scale, but not black and white.

We are all making this up as we go along, as our technology and equipment changes, our societies evolve, our neurophysiology morphs and adjusts.

I am reminded of a Scientific American mention, in their 50+100 years ago from some time ago of an article around 1920 that stated that there was no need to study physics any further, that all that could be learned had been learned.

We humans are particularly solipsistic if not very careful.

And we can only generate fiction from what we call fact anyway.

How would we even notice if there were a black hole leaking completely unrelated and non-existent ideas into our literary/etc world? If it were to do so, if authors were to be tuning into it, we wouldn't comprehend them. Look how challenging even basic concepts are for us to all grasp and act upon: love, compassion, altruism, sustainability. Anyone think we could even perceive, let alone understand, something so alien that it was unconnected to our 'consensual reality'?

Even the really weird creepy stuff is only so because it's a known contrast to what we have experienced.

Okay. Enough.

Good luck and god speed.

Tory

On Oct 17, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Peter -

Well said...

and in a single short paragraph with a single eloquent quote...

- Steve

A’propos Ten Best Texts as fiction. I’m sure no one at Friam holds to the techno-barbarian view that nothing valuable can be gained from fiction. In my opinion the important human values can be illuminated only by fiction. After all, the King James Bible (1611) is about the best thing in fiction the English have ever done.
When told that his work was “untrue”, Pablo* agreed, remarking: “Art is a lie that helps us see the truth”.
This seems a valuable insight.

*Pablo Picasso (1887 – 1968): Sp., Fr. painter. Developed cubism

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------

Nick Thompson

Re: Art is a Lie

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

I would like, if only as a matter of principle, to rise to the defense of all those techno-barbarians on the list who cannot find voice to defend themselves, but I can only say that …

IF there is something valuable in fiction, if it indeed fosters or transmits knowledge,

Then fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology.

To twist Stephen J. Gould’s words a bit: They are Overlapping Magisteria.

There is no knowledge that is not potentially scientific knowledge.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/nthompson

http://www.cusf.org

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 9:10 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

Peter -

Well said...

and in a single short paragraph with a single eloquent quote...

- Steve

When told that his work was “untrue”, Pablo* agreed, remarking: “Art is a lie that helps us see the truth”.

This seems a valuable insight.

*Pablo Picasso (1887 – 1968): Sp., Fr. painter. Developed cubism

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
<a href="tel:(505)983-7728">tel:(505)983-7728

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Victoria Hughes

Re: Art is a Lie

Yes!

There is no knowledge that is not potentially scientific knowledge.

On Oct 17, 2010, at 10:42 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

I would like, if only as a matter of principle, to rise to the defense of all those techno-barbarians on the list who cannot find voice to defend themselves, but I can only say that …

IF there is something valuable in fiction, if it indeed fosters or transmits knowledge,

Then fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology.

To twist Stephen J. Gould’s words a bit: They are Overlapping Magisteria.

There is no knowledge that is not potentially scientific knowledge.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/nthompson
http://www.cusf.org

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 9:10 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

Peter -

Well said...

and in a single short paragraph with a single eloquent quote...

- Steve

A’propos Ten Best Texts as fiction. I’m sure no one at Friam holds to the techno-barbarian view that nothing valuable can be gained from fiction. In my opinion the important human values can be illuminatedonly by fiction. After all, the King James Bible (1611) is about the best thing in fiction the English have ever done.
When told that his work was “untrue”, Pablo* agreed, remarking: “Art is a lie that helps us see the truth”.
This seems a valuable insight.

*Pablo Picasso (1887 – 1968): Sp., Fr. painter. Developed cubism

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
<a href="tel:(505)983-7728" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">tel:(505)983-7728

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------

Eric Charles

Re: Art is a Lie

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick,
This is bizarre! "Fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology." I cannot, for the life of me parse it. Is it equivalent to saying: "Fiction is a potential method in scientific physics."? Granted that science fiction has broadly anticipated many things that are now part of scientific physics, but it also anticipated many things that were not, and I hope you are not arguing that cutting edge sci-fi writers should get endowed chairs in physics on the basis of their scientific accomplishments!

When I recall you making criticisms along these lines, it was mostly to frustrate doe-eyed grad students who wanted to save the world. You argued, at those times, that if they wanted to help survivors of genocide, they would be better off writing a gripping novel that helped increase international attention to their plight; if they wanted to help survivors get along better with genocide bystanders, you would write a heart wrenching novel with a message of reconciliation; etc. The last thing you should think in either of these situations, you argued, is that everything is failing for the lack of one more scientific study in social/personality psychology. This arguement I completely agreed with. It does seem to argue for some sort of deep relationship between fictional literature and "truth."

However, I have no idea what you are getting at now. Certainly one could study fiction as an empirical psychologist, but that wouldn't make fiction a "method". Are you trying to say that a valid way to do scientific psychology is to make stuff up? No chance you are doing that. What are you trying to get at?!?

Eric

On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:42 AM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would like, if only as a matter of principle, to rise to the defense of all those techno-barbarians on the list who cannot find voice to defend themselves, but I can only say that …

IF there is something valuable in fiction, if it indeed fosters or transmits knowledge,

Then fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology.

To twist Stephen J. Gould’s words a bit: They are Overlapping Magisteria.

There is no knowledge that is not potentially scientific knowledge.

Nick

Robert J. Cordingley

Re: Art is a Lie

It's hypothetical reasoning. Re-read the IF statements.

Robert C

On 10/18/10 7:54 AM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote:

Nick,
This is bizarre! "Fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology." I cannot, for the life of me parse it. Is it equivalent to saying: "Fiction is a potential method in scientific physics."? Granted that science fiction has broadly anticipated many things that are now part of scientific physics, but it also anticipated many things that were not, and I hope you are not arguing that cutting edge sci-fi writers should get endowed chairs in physics on the basis of their scientific accomplishments!

When I recall you making criticisms along these lines, it was mostly to frustrate doe-eyed grad students who wanted to save the world. You argued, at those times, that if they wanted to help survivors of genocide, they would be better off writing a gripping novel that helped increase international attention to their plight; if they wanted to help survivors get along better with genocide bystanders, you would write a heart wrenching novel with a message of reconciliation; etc. The last thing you should think in either of these situations, you argued, is that everything is failing for the lack of one more scientific study in social/personality psychology. This arguement I completely agreed with. It does seem to argue for some sort of deep relationship between fictional literature and "truth."

However, I have no idea what you are getting at now. Certainly one could study fiction as an empirical psychologist, but that wouldn't make fiction a "method". Are you trying to say that a valid way to do scientific psychology is to make stuff up? No chance you are doing that. What are you trying to get at?!?

Eric

On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:42 AM, "Nicholas Thompson" [hidden email] wrote:

I would like, if only as a matter of principle, to rise to the defense of all those techno-barbarians on the list who cannot find voice to defend themselves, but I can only say that …

IF there is something valuable in fiction, if it indeed fosters or transmits knowledge,

Then fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology.

To twist Stephen J. Gould’s words a bit: They are Overlapping Magisteria.

There is no knowledge that is not potentially scientific knowledge.

Nick
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: Art is a Lie

Robert,

Thanks for offering me that escape route, but I cannot take it, because I probably believe the IF-conditions. You are right to sense that I need rescuing, because if I am abandoned by Eric, I am truly abandoned.

I have to admit that what I laid out (below) are probably VALUES. In other words, I am more prepared to argue from them than I am to argue for them.

The basic idea is, though, that there aren’t kinds of truth; there is JUST truth. So if somebody asserts that literature is source of truth, then there MUST (on my values) be a way for science to get at it. But now I have to go dandle.

Thanks Robert; thanks Eric.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert J. Cordingley
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 8:14 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

It's hypothetical reasoning. Re-read the IF statements.

Robert C

On 10/18/10 7:54 AM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote:

Nick,
This is bizarre! "Fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology." I cannot, for the life of me parse it. Is it equivalent to saying: "Fiction is a potential method in scientific physics."? Granted that science fiction has broadly anticipated many things that are now part of scientific physics, but it also anticipated many things that were not, and I hope you are not arguing that cutting edge sci-fi writers should get endowed chairs in physics on the basis of their scientific accomplishments!

When I recall you making criticisms along these lines, it was mostly to frustrate doe-eyed grad students who wanted to save the world. You argued, at those times, that if they wanted to help survivors of genocide, they would be better off writing a gripping novel that helped increase international attention to their plight; if they wanted to help survivors get along better with genocide bystanders, you would write a heart wrenching novel with a message of reconciliation; etc. The last thing you should think in either of these situations, you argued, is that everything is failing for the lack of one more scientific study in social/personality psychology. This arguement I completely agreed with. It does seem to argue for some sort of deep relationship between fictional literature and "truth."

However, I have no idea what you are getting at now. Certainly one could study fiction as an empirical psychologist, but that wouldn't make fiction a "method". Are you trying to say that a valid way to do scientific psychology is to make stuff up? No chance you are doing that. What are you trying to get at?!?

Eric

On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:42 AM, "Nicholas Thompson" [hidden email] wrote:

I would like, if only as a matter of principle, to rise to the defense of all those techno-barbarians on the list who cannot find voice to defend themselves, but I can only say that …

IF there is something valuable in fiction, if it indeed fosters or transmits knowledge,

Then fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology.

To twist Stephen J. Gould’s words a bit: They are Overlapping Magisteria.

There is no knowledge that is not potentially scientific knowledge.

Nick

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Miles Parker

Re: Art is a Lie

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:54 AM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote:

> Nick,
> I hope you are not arguing that cutting edge sci-fi writers should get endowed chairs in physics on the basis of their scientific accomplishments!

Actually, I think it is only *bad* fiction writers that get the endowed chairs. ;D

String theory certainly looks like nothing so much as a -- sometimes elegant, sometimes brittle and byzantine -- interpretive art form.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Robert J. Cordingley

Re: Art is a Lie

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Perhaps what I am hearing you say Nick is that by writing fiction (and studying it) we can uncover something meaningful about the author's mental makeup. Just as some therapies, I am told, recommend keeping journals for later examination.

By studying readers' reactions to the same writing, I'm sure something meaningful can be uncovered about the reader's mental makeup.

But then I know little about psychoanalysis and the existing methods available.

Thanks
Robert

On 10/18/10 10:27 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

Robert,

Thanks for offering me that escape route, but I cannot take it, because I probably believe the IF-conditions. You are right to sense that I need rescuing, because if I am abandoned by Eric, I am truly abandoned.

I have to admit that what I laid out (below) are probably VALUES. In other words, I am more prepared to argue from them than I am to argue for them.

The basic idea is, though, that there aren’t kinds of truth; there is JUST truth. So if somebody asserts that literature is source of truth, then there MUST (on my values) be a way for science to get at it. But now I have to go dandle.

Thanks Robert; thanks Eric.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert J. Cordingley
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 8:14 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

It's hypothetical reasoning. Re-read the IF statements.

Robert C

On 10/18/10 7:54 AM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote:

Nick,
This is bizarre! "Fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology." I cannot, for the life of me parse it. Is it equivalent to saying: "Fiction is a potential method in scientific physics."? Granted that science fiction has broadly anticipated many things that are now part of scientific physics, but it also anticipated many things that were not, and I hope you are not arguing that cutting edge sci-fi writers should get endowed chairs in physics on the basis of their scientific accomplishments!

When I recall you making criticisms along these lines, it was mostly to frustrate doe-eyed grad students who wanted to save the world. You argued, at those times, that if they wanted to help survivors of genocide, they would be better off writing a gripping novel that helped increase international attention to their plight; if they wanted to help survivors get along better with genocide bystanders, you would write a heart wrenching novel with a message of reconciliation; etc. The last thing you should think in either of these situations, you argued, is that everything is failing for the lack of one more scientific study in social/personality psychology. This arguement I completely agreed with. It does seem to argue for some sort of deep relationship between fictional literature and "truth."

However, I have no idea what you are getting at now. Certainly one could study fiction as an empirical psychologist, but that wouldn't make fiction a "method". Are you trying to say that a valid way to do scientific psychology is to make stuff up? No chance you are doing that. What are you trying to get at?!?

Eric

On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:42 AM, "Nicholas Thompson" [hidden email] wrote:

I would like, if only as a matter of principle, to rise to the defense of all those techno-barbarians on the list who cannot find voice to defend themselves, but I can only say that …

IF there is something valuable in fiction, if it indeed fosters or transmits knowledge,

Then fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology.

To twist Stephen J. Gould’s words a bit: They are Overlapping Magisteria.

There is no knowledge that is not potentially scientific knowledge.

Nick
 
 
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: Lying is an Art?

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Peter and Steve

I have heard Peter’s quote before ( I suspect Picasso was not the first, just the most prominent ) and other slightly different extensions,

“Assemble a man’s lies and then you will learn what he values”

“First deceive yourself then you can deceive others”

“We comfort with lies those terrified by the truth”

“Bad liars have no inkling of the truth”

Perhaps it has never been easy to be truthful in society so we mastered the special art of lying through our teeth. If you have to lie about something it forces you to have a very firm picture of the truth in your mind or you may make a mistake.

Writing under oppressive regimes has created marvellous fiction such as Bulgakov’s Master and Margarita.

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky

Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology)

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg, Manitoba

CANADA R2J 3R2

(204) 2548321 Phone/Fax

[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: October 17, 2010 10:10 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

Peter -

Well said...

and in a single short paragraph with a single eloquent quote...

- Steve

When told that his work was “untrue”, Pablo* agreed, remarking: “Art is a lie that helps us see the truth”.

This seems a valuable insight.

*Pablo Picasso (1887 – 1968): Sp., Fr. painter. Developed cubism

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Victoria Hughes

Re: Lying is an Art?

How about the word "misdirection"?

Lies we tell ourselves are different that the sleight of hand we offer others, with a wink and a nudge, to say things without being held accountable.

Art usually (not always) falls into the latter category. Artists who lie to themselves usually get a day job.

Tory

On Oct 18, 2010, at 5:07 PM, Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky wrote:

Peter and Steve

I have heard Peter’s quote before ( I suspect Picasso was not the first, just the most prominent ) and other slightly different extensions,

“Assemble a man’s lies and then you will learn what he values”
“First deceive yourself then you can deceive others”
“We comfort with lies those terrified by the truth”
“Bad liars have no inkling of the truth”

Perhaps it has never been easy to be truthful in society so we mastered the special art of lying through our teeth. If you have to lie about something it forces you to have a very firm picture of the truth in your mind or you may make a mistake.
Writing under oppressive regimes has created marvellous fiction such as Bulgakov’s Master and Margarita.

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky
Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology)

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.
Winnipeg, Manitoba
CANADA R2J 3R2
(204) 2548321 Phone/Fax
[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: October 17, 2010 10:10 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

Peter -

Well said...

and in a single short paragraph with a single eloquent quote...

- Steve

A’propos Ten Best Texts as fiction. I’m sure no one at Friam holds to the techno-barbarian view that nothing valuable can be gained from fiction. In my opinion the important human values can be illuminated only by fiction. After all, the King James Bible (1611) is about the best thing in fiction the English have ever done.
When told that his work was “untrue”, Pablo* agreed, remarking: “Art is a lie that helps us see the truth”.
This seems a valuable insight.

*Pablo Picasso (1887 – 1968): Sp., Fr. painter. Developed cubism

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------

glen e. p. ropella-2

Re: Art is a Lie

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

I took it to mean that:

a) scientific knowledge is the only authentic knowledge,
b) _if_ there is is knowledge in fiction, then it is scientific
knowledge (by definition), and most importantly,
c) if we fail to devise any falsifiable hypotheses from fiction, then
we've demonstrated there is no knowledge in fiction.

Given that setup, we should try to formulate a falsifiable hypothesis
from/about some fictional work. If we succeed, regardless of whether
the hypothesis is falsified or not, the fiction contains knowledge.

To me, it's obvious that fiction contains (perhaps _is) knowledge
because, to me, all knowledge is based on models and all models are
fiction. Even the most validated models of all time, relativity and QM,
are fiction. We just haven't found the circumstances that will show
them to be false.

Something must be said about precision, though, over and above accuracy.
Ulysses and QM are both fiction; but QM is precise. A prediction could
probably be made from Ulysses; but it wouldn't be a precise prediction,
probably because the semantic grounding in Ulysses is relational rather
than absolute.

And that brings us to the 3rd relevant spectrum: abstract vs. concrete.
Although QM can make precise predictions, it cannot make concrete
predictions. Any quantum is replacable by any other quantum. However,
Ulysses may well admit to concrete prediction (e.g. The Irish are
lunatics?).

So, Ulysses would be accurate, imprecise, and concrete. QM would be
accurate, precise, and abstract. It would be fun to place other
fictions in this 3d "space". 8^)

Nicholas Thompson wrote circa 10-10-17 09:42 PM:
> I would like, if only as a matter of principle, to rise to the defense of all those techno-barbarians on the list who cannot find voice to defend themselves, but I can only say that â€¦
>
> IF there is something valuable in fiction, if it indeed fosters or transmits knowledge,
>
> Then fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology.
>
> To twist Stephen J. Gouldâ€™s words a bit: They are Overlapping Magisteria.
>
> There is no knowledge that is not potentially scientific knowledge.

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Carl Tollander

Re: Lying is an Art?

In reply to this post by Victoria Hughes

Artists who don't lie to themselves usually end up looking for a day job too.

Carl

On 10/18/10 5:15 PM, Victoria Hughes wrote:

How about the word "misdirection"?
Lies we tell ourselves are different that the sleight of hand we offer others, with a wink and a nudge, to say things without being held accountable.

Art usually (not always) falls into the latter category. Artists who lie to themselves usually get a day job.

Tory
On Oct 18, 2010, at 5:07 PM, Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky wrote:
Peter and Steve

I have heard Peter’s quote before ( I suspect Picasso was not the first, just the most prominent ) and other slightly different extensions,

“Assemble a man’s lies and then you will learn what he values”

“First deceive yourself then you can deceive others”

“We comfort with lies those terrified by the truth”

“Bad liars have no inkling of the truth”

Perhaps it has never been easy to be truthful in society so we mastered the special art of lying through our teeth. If you have to lie about something it forces you to have a very firm picture of the truth in your mind or you may make a mistake.

Writing under oppressive regimes has created marvellous fiction such as Bulgakov’s Master and Margarita.

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky

Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology)

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg, Manitoba

CANADA R2J 3R2

(204) 2548321 Phone/Fax

[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: October 17, 2010 10:10 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

Peter -

Well said...

and in a single short paragraph with a single eloquent quote...

- Steve

A’propos Ten Best Texts as fiction. I’m sure no one at Friam holds to the techno-barbarian view that nothing valuable can be gained from fiction. In my opinion the important human values can be illuminated only by fiction. After all, the King James Bible (1611) is about the best thing in fiction the English have ever done.

When told that his work was “untrue”, Pablo* agreed, remarking: “Art is a lie that helps us see the truth”.

This seems a valuable insight.

* Pablo Picasso (1887 – 1968): Sp., Fr. painter. Developed cubism

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

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-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

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Nick Thompson

Re: Art is a Lie

In reply to this post by Robert J. Cordingley

Again, Robert, this would be a weaker (and perhaps saner) version of the thesis I am offering. Thanks, again, for your heroic attempts to rescue me.

However, what I have in mind at the moment is a stronger thesis. It goes something like this. Every attempt at objective scientific observation necessarily has a fictional element. At the minimum, you have to leave stuff out. Further, every attempt at fiction writing, must tell the truth about something. (In fact, one can only lie, within a broader framework of truth telling, I am guessing.) (The best lies, of course, are truthful about everything except one crucial and unexpected feature of the situation.) So, if you grant with me that science is in the business of discovering the truth, and now you grant that every artistic creation says something true about its subject, then fiction writing has to be viewed as a potential scientific method. If you add, now, the fact that the methodological restrictions placed on psychologists so degrade their ability to discover the truth by everyday scientific methods of observation, measurement , sampling, comparison of results, publication, etc., then you arrive at my suggestion that perhaps we ought to consider fiction as a form of scientific observation.

One problem I see with this position is answering the question, “Just what is, say, “Crows in a Cornfield” and observation of?” Crows in a cornfield? Ok. What else?

By the way – speaking to Eric – I think this is fully consistent with the New Realist position.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/nthompson

http://www.cusf.org

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert J. Cordingley
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 2:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

Robert,

I have to admit that what I laid out (below) are probably VALUES. In other words, I am more prepared to argue from them than I am to argue for them.

Thanks Robert; thanks Eric.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert J. Cordingley
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 8:14 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

It's hypothetical reasoning. Re-read the IF statements.

Robert C

On 10/18/10 7:54 AM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote:

Nick,
This is bizarre! "Fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology." I cannot, for the life of me parse it. Is it equivalent to saying: "Fiction is a potential method in scientific physics."? Granted that science fiction has broadly anticipated many things that are now part of scientific physics, but it also anticipated many things that were not, and I hope you are not arguing that cutting edge sci-fi writers should get endowed chairs in physics on the basis of their scientific accomplishments!

When I recall you making criticisms along these lines, it was mostly to frustrate doe-eyed grad students who wanted to save the world. You argued, at those times, that if they wanted to help survivors of genocide, they would be better off writing a gripping novel that helped increase international attention to their plight; if they wanted to help survivors get along better with genocide bystanders, you would write a heart wrenching novel with a message of reconciliation; etc. The last thing you should think in either of these situations, you argued, is that everything is failing for the lack of one more scientific study in social/personality psychology. This arguement I completely agreed with. It does seem to argue for some sort of deep relationship between fictional literature and "truth."

However, I have no idea what you are getting at now. Certainly one could study fiction as an empirical psychologist, but that wouldn't make fiction a "method". Are you trying to say that a valid way to do scientific psychology is to make stuff up? No chance you are doing that. What are you trying to get at?!?

Eric

On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:42 AM, "Nicholas Thompson" [hidden email] wrote:

I would like, if only as a matter of principle, to rise to the defense of all those techno-barbarians on the list who cannot find voice to defend themselves, but I can only say that …

IF there is something valuable in fiction, if it indeed fosters or transmits knowledge,

Then fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology.

To twist Stephen J. Gould’s words a bit: They are Overlapping Magisteria.

There is no knowledge that is not potentially scientific knowledge.

Nick

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

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Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: Lying is an Art?

In reply to this post by Victoria Hughes

Hi Tori,

Guess I am up to no good again.

Misdirection … like a female chimpanzee trying to gain some fool’s hard won high hanging fruit with a wink and a Nod.???

Believe it or not even a simpleton like me has learned to do the same thing. A little bit like the old trick for catching Bull Frogs.

A piece of red fabric torn from my little brother’s undershorts,(sneaking under a barbed wire fence to steal fruit) , a fishing pole and line and hook. Just dangle it into the reeds and voila keep the froggies coming!, because we are going to eat like the Frenchmen tonight. My brothers and I were all simpletons… My father taught us the fine Art of pulling off their Pantalons. My father escaped war torn Europe and his first job in Canada was in a French restaurant. It was quite a change from being a soldier . Lately I just pick chicken feet at Dim Sum when I want to upset the straight laced old white ladies.

A little deceit and misdirection and we eat like kings and have a Jolly time.

That Bullfrog is a perfect solipsist and very tasty one at that done in butter with a slice of lemon. I think as kids we used an old Plymouth hub cap when they still had them, for a frying pan. I had a charming youth, I built devious devices for professional Magicians and Marijuana Smugglers. They all practiced the Art of deception one right in front of your face and the other flying so low he intruded on grasshoppers (It was a good business supplying Americans for many years, then everybody just got so serious and started shooting even dragonflies. I was perfectly legal because I never asked to know the truth! Ignorance of the fact is a legal defense even if the ignorance is extremely well thought.Odd that ignorance of the law is not acceptable but wilfull ignorance of the fact may still work. I guess it was a compromise situation like a marriage.). Just because a man has an education does not mean he is any less a scoundrel, perhaps more so. Pleading stupidity is also a an Art form itself.

The Art of Deception; Nasrudhin and von Clausewitz have both much to say on the matter. But I put myself in closer association with Hasek’s, Good Soldier Svec. He simply dyed stray mutts to look like purebred dogs with a pedigree.

Later I graduated to Academic research and dangling bits of brightly colored acetate could get you a research grant. Many men are also solipsists but I never tried eating one..

Let no man accuse me of lacking guile. Funny having a scoundrel discussing art and lies. What has the world come to.

A self professed unbeliever mingling with the Literati. My My.

My daughter once asked why I never believed her, what should I have said? I probably muttered off hand “because she could not distinguish truth from fiction “and neither could I when it came right down to the nitty gritty, I can’t believe myself why should I treat her any differently? I have always had difficulty with sincere people..

My daughter is also an artist. That still leaves me an unrepentant scoundrel with bad habits and a taste for the weird.

Assemble my lies and tell me what you think I value, I’d like to know myself.

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky

Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology)

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg, Manitoba

CANADA R2J 3R2

(204) 2548321 Phone/Fax

[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Victoria Hughes
Sent: October 18, 2010 6:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Lying is an Art?

How about the word "misdirection"?

Lies we tell ourselves are different that the sleight of hand we offer others, with a wink and a nudge, to say things without being held accountable.

Art usually (not always) falls into the latter category. Artists who lie to themselves usually get a day job.

Tory

On Oct 18, 2010, at 5:07 PM, Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky wrote:

Peter and Steve

I have heard Peter’s quote before ( I suspect Picasso was not the first, just the most prominent ) and other slightly different extensions,

“Assemble a man’s lies and then you will learn what he values”

“First deceive yourself then you can deceive others”

“We comfort with lies those terrified by the truth”

“Bad liars have no inkling of the truth”

Writing under oppressive regimes has created marvellous fiction such as Bulgakov’s Master and Margarita.

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky

Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology)

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg, Manitoba

CANADA R2J 3R2

(204) 2548321 Phone/Fax

[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: October 17, 2010 10:10 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

Peter -

Well said...

and in a single short paragraph with a single eloquent quote...

- Steve

When told that his work was “untrue”, Pablo* agreed, remarking: “Art is a lie that helps us see the truth”.

This seems a valuable insight.

*Pablo Picasso (1887 – 1968): Sp., Fr. painter. Developed cubism

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------

Nick Thompson

Re: Art is a Lie

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

Dear Eric and Nikita n all,

You join Robert in the desperate, altruistic attempt to save me from the clear meaning of my own words. There are two reasons to stop doing lame social psychology studies and take up writing novels: (1) is the reason you give, and which I endorsed in the sec group: social psychology dissertations are piss-poor politics. (2) is the one I am now am pressing and which I used to raise, from time to time in the kitchen group, after listening to microgenetic accounts of humans doing this or that. The narrative description of the behavior of a person doing this or that, thought to be of psychological significance, is so close to fiction that I would expect that any argument strong enough to justify it would be strong enough to justify fiction.. I may be wrong, but I want to hear that discussion. So far, the only reactions I have gotten are horror and apathy. I guess your last response is in the horror category.

The one thing I cannot live with is the notion that there are varieties of truth ... artistic truth, emotional truth, scientific truth, etc. Obscurantist hogwash. My VALUES tell me that there is but one Truth and different ways of getting at it. Changing a man's values is devilishly hard. You can point out to him that he plainly does not believe things that those values entail, and see if he changes his beliefs or changes the values (in which case, they probably weren't values in the first place.) Or, you can demonstrate that a proposition that he claims as a value conflicts logically with other propositions for which he has made similar claims, (in which case he must give up on some values, or give up on logic. The Tea Party movement provides wonderful examples of the latter defense)

Please do one of these two things and stop telling me I don't believe what I say I believe, without providing evidence.

All I am saying here is, If literature has a pair of binoculars through which it can see things that science cannot see, science better get a grant from NSF to buy the damned binoculars. All of this seems to me perfectly standard New Realism, although you know that stuff better than I do. Intuitively, prior to much reflection, I share the view sponsored by so many on this list that there are truths in fiction not (yet) found in psychology, partly because our professional ethics wont let us do the experiments that novelists every time they sit down to write. After all, most interesting statements about humans are dispositional ... "A person will do X if you do Y to him." This is exactly the sort of situation that novels are made to explore.

Be careful here: this started out as a quixotic little thought. The more you yell at me, the more I am inclined to believe it.

All the best,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/nthompson
http://www.cusf.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Nikita A. Kharlamov [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 7:29 PM
To: ERIC P. CHARLES
Cc: Nicholas Thompson; [hidden email]; 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re[2]: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

Eric!

I think you are being too harsh. To an extent - fiction WAS and STILL IS a method of psychological knowledge for a potentially unlimited audience.

I for my part read Dostoyevsky's 'Crime and Punishment' well before stuff like 'Experimental demonstration of the tomatotopic organization in the Soprano (Cantatrix sopranica L.)'.

A lot of people learn something about human hearts/souls/minds/consciousnesses/behaviors/etc
(strike out / append as desired) from great and not-so-great works of fiction rather than from great papers in Scientific Psychology and great Scientific Psychologists and Great Counseling Psychologists.

In fact, before some debatable point somewhere in XIX century, lots and lots of texts written in the manner of interrogating what we today call the subject matter of the Reverend Scientific Psychology had no option of being thus labeled. At best those were labeled Philosophy. And contained a great deal of fiction.

Thus, if you allow creating fiction to have something to do with whatever you think is the thing in reality that Most Eminent Scientific Psychology studies - fiction really is just one of the ways of making sense of this weird stuff. And could at times have roughly the same effect as qualitative psychology in terms of providing the first grounds for Its Majesty Scientific Psychology.

(I wonder how many great works in Scientific Psychology were inspired at least in part by fiction?)

Of course, if Scientific Psychology is supposed to perennially suffer from psychotic denial of its own roots in the basic tendency of humans to wonder what the hell is going on in other people's heads - then indeed, fiction should get out of the way of hypotheses apparently dropping down from those mountains hanging in thin air (I think those come from Japanese drawings, may be mistaken) that inspired Cameron to create the world of Avatar. (Oops. Fiction again.
Strike Cameron out, leave only thin air - is it a scientific fact though that the air is thin?)

n

Monday, October 18, 2010, 9:54:54 AM, you wrote:

> Nick,
> This is bizarre! "Fiction is a potential method in scientific
> psychology." I cannot, for the life of me parse it. Is it equivalent
> to saying: "Fiction is a potential method in scientific physics."?
> Granted that science fiction has broadly anticipated many things that
> are now part of scientific physics, but it also anticipated many
> things that were not, and I hope you are not arguing that cutting edge
> sci-fi writers should get endowed chairs in physics on the basis of
> their scientific accomplishments!

> When I recall you making criticisms along these lines, it was mostly
> to frustrate doe-eyed grad students who wanted to save the world. You
> argued, at those times, that if they wanted to help survivors of
> genocide, they would be better off writing a gripping novel that
> helped increase international attention to their plight; if they
> wanted to help survivors get along better with genocide bystanders,
> you would write a heart wrenching novel with a message of
> reconciliation; etc. The last thing you should think in either of
> these situations, you argued, is that everything is failing for the
> lack of one more scientific study in social/personality psychology.
> This arguement I completely agreed with. It does seem to argue for
> some sort of deep relationship between fictional literature and "truth."

> However, I have no idea what you are getting at now. Certainly one
> could study fiction as an empirical psychologist, but that wouldn't
> make fiction a "method". Are you trying to say that a valid way to do
> scientific psychology is to make stuff up? No chance you are doing
> that. What are you trying to get at?!?

> Eric

> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:42 AM, "Nicholas Thompson"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I would like, if only as a matter of principle, to rise to the defense
> of all those techno-barbarians on the list who cannot find voice to
> defend themselves, but I can only say that … IF there is something
> valuable in fiction, if it indeed fosters or transmits knowledge, Then
> fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology.
> To twist Stephen J. Gould’s words a bit: They are Overlapping Magisteria.
> There is no knowledge that is not potentially scientific knowledge.
> Nick

--
Nikita A. Kharlamov
Department of Psychology
Clark University
950 Main Street
Worcester, MA 01610
USA
nkharlamov at clarku dot edu
http://www.cfs.hse.ru/eng/content/view/24/42/

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Carl Tollander

Re: Art is a Lie

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Ummm, not quite. You could argue that some portion of science is concerned with obtaining true answers to some questions asked, and there might be explicit or implicit deception involved there. But another large chunk is concerned with finding better questions to ask. If I find, for example, that the models I have been using when combined give nonsense answers, or that, say, more than 75% of recently posited stuff in my field is not addressed by the models at hand at all, then I might be justified in engaging in some phenomenology - e.g., are there better questions that tell me where to look for new kinds of data and relate those data in a more coherent way? It seems that under those circumstances one is not only free to make stuff up and fudge parameters around in order to test if some new kinds of coherence are possible, but one is positively obligated to do so. You could call that both an artistic AND a scientific path, but it's nevertheless fiction. If we can tell a more compelling story, only then is it worth our time to marshal other conceptual apparatus (e.g. scientific methodologies) to engage the story (by continuously relating it to experience of the moment) to consider how it might be true. But I think it may be confusing to call the story itself an observation - it would be more a means of organizing a scientific conversation about observations we have made and might make.

"The universe is made of stories, not atoms" - Muriel Rukyser

Eric:
>>I hope you are not arguing that cutting edge sci-fi writers should get endowed chairs in physics on the basis of their scientific accomplishments!
Sorry, but... http://www.gregorybenford.com/bio.php

Carl

On 10/18/10 6:21 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

Again, Robert, this would be a weaker (and perhaps saner) version of the thesis I am offering.   Thanks, again, for your heroic attempts to rescue me.

However, what I have in mind at the moment is a stronger thesis. It goes something like this. Every attempt at objective scientific observation necessarily has a fictional element. At the minimum, you have to leave stuff out. Further, every attempt at fiction writing, must tell the truth about something. (In fact, one can only lie, within a broader framework of truth telling, I am guessing.) (The best lies, of course, are truthful about everything except one crucial and unexpected feature of the situation.) So, if you grant with me that science is in the business of discovering the truth, and now you grant that every artistic creation says something true about its subject, then fiction writing has to be viewed as a potential scientific method.    If you add, now, the fact that the methodological restrictions placed on psychologists so degrade their ability to discover the truth by everyday scientific methods of observation, measurement , sampling, comparison of results, publication, etc., then you arrive at my suggestion that perhaps we ought to consider fiction as a form of scientific observation.

One problem I see with this position is answering the question, “Just what is, say, “Crows in a Cornfield” and observation of?” Crows in a cornfield? Ok. What else?

By the way – speaking to Eric – I think this is fully consistent with the New Realist position.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/nthompson

http://www.cusf.org

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert J. Cordingley
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 2:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

Perhaps what I am hearing you say Nick is that by writing fiction (and studying it) we can uncover something meaningful about the author's mental makeup. Just as some therapies, I am told, recommend keeping journals for later examination.

By studying readers' reactions to the same writing, I'm sure something meaningful can be uncovered about the reader's mental makeup.

But then I know little about psychoanalysis and the existing methods available.

Thanks
Robert

On 10/18/10 10:27 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

Robert,

Thanks for offering me that escape route, but I cannot take it, because I probably believe the IF-conditions. You are right to sense that I need rescuing, because if I am abandoned by Eric, I am truly abandoned.

I have to admit that what I laid out (below) are probably VALUES. In other words, I am more prepared to argue from them than I am to argue for them.

The basic idea is, though, that there aren’t kinds of truth; there is JUST truth.   So if somebody asserts that literature is source of truth, then there MUST (on my values) be a way for science to get at it. But now I have to go dandle.

Thanks Robert; thanks Eric.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert J. Cordingley
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 8:14 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Art is a Lie

It's hypothetical reasoning. Re-read the IF statements.

Robert C

On 10/18/10 7:54 AM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote:

Nick,
This is bizarre! "Fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology." I cannot, for the life of me parse it. Is it equivalent to saying: "Fiction is a potential method in scientific physics."? Granted that science fiction has broadly anticipated many things that are now part of scientific physics, but it also anticipated many things that were not, and I hope you are not arguing that cutting edge sci-fi writers should get endowed chairs in physics on the basis of their scientific accomplishments!

When I recall you making criticisms along these lines, it was mostly to frustrate doe-eyed grad students who wanted to save the world. You argued, at those times, that if they wanted to help survivors of genocide, they would be better off writing a gripping novel that helped increase international attention to their plight; if they wanted to help survivors get along better with genocide bystanders, you would write a heart wrenching novel with a message of reconciliation; etc. The last thing you should think in either of these situations, you argued, is that everything is failing for the lack of one more scientific study in social/personality psychology. This arguement I completely agreed with. It does seem to argue for some sort of deep relationship between fictional literature and "truth."

However, I have no idea what you are getting at now. Certainly one could study fiction as an empirical psychologist, but that wouldn't make fiction a "method". Are you trying to say that a valid way to do scientific psychology is to make stuff up? No chance you are doing that. What are you trying to get at?!?

Eric

On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:42 AM, "Nicholas Thompson" [hidden email] wrote:

I would like, if only as a matter of principle, to rise to the defense of all those techno-barbarians on the list who cannot find voice to defend themselves, but I can only say that …

IF there is something valuable in fiction, if it indeed fosters or transmits knowledge,

Then fiction is a potential method in scientific psychology.

To twist Stephen J. Gould’s words a bit: They are Overlapping Magisteria.

There is no knowledge that is not potentially scientific knowledge.

Nick
   
   
============================================================  
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv  
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College  
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org  
   
============================================================  
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv  
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College  
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org  
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org