Animation via Behavior: Killer Game Programming in Java

[Owen Densmore]

This may seem a bit odd, but bear with me!

We've been using Processing.org's great graphics system: the  
libraries and the nifty IDE and tools for managing  
"sketchbooks" (projects), building web pages/applets, and even  
building applications for Windows, Mac and Linux.  We've had success  
(i.e. got paid for!) two projects using Processing: a Stadium model,  
and a generalized Data Visualization system.  Quite nice.

So now we've got two interesting environments for modeling: NetLogo,  
our old friend which keeps getting better, and Processing which seems  
great for what I'd call "wire frame" modeling.  We've also got high  
end rendering experience with Blender: we can both use it to build  
Processing meshes for our models and can render agent motion inside  
blender, using NetLogo and Processing output.

BUT we're missing a "sweet spot" in the middle: a fairly realistic 3D  
environment that can do realtime modeling .. i.e. animation via  
behavior.  We also want to have some notion of "physics" .. i.e.  
things bouncing off walls or agents colliding.  (Blender thus far has  
not worked, but we're still poking.)

This prompting me to look into Java graphics and game books, one of  
which is Killer Game Programming in Java.  The book has a website  
which includes a LOT of material that is not in his book:
   http://fivedots.coe.psu.ac.th/~ad/jg/
This let to getting in touch with the author, asking for pointers to  
"game engines", see email attached.

Now to the question to FRIAM:  Has anyone found a good environment  
for agent based modeling with "game-like" 3D realism and with modest  
libraries for collision detection, scene graphs and so on?

     -- Owen

Owen Densmore   http://backspaces.net

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Dr. Andrew Davison" <ad at fivedots.coe.psu.ac.th>
> Date: September 4, 2006 10:56:45 PM MDT
> To: Owen Densmore <owen at backspaces.net>
> Subject: Re: Processing.org
>
>
> Owen,
>
> Thanks for the pointer to processing.org. It's a very nice system.
>
>> We're also looking for Java "game engines" to make our work  
>> simpler.  Do you have any pointers?
>
> Here's a snippet from an article I'm writing:
>
> Xith3D (http://xith.org) uses the same basic scene graph structure  
> as Java 3D, but can also directly call OpenGL operations. Since the  
> high-level APIs of Xith3D and Java 3D are so similar, porting Java  
> 3D code over to Xith3D is fairly straightforward. There are  
> versions of Xith3D that run on top of JOGL and LWJGL.
>
> jME Graphics Engine (jMonkey Engine, http://
> www.mojomonkeycoding.com/) was inspired by the scene graph engine  
> described in 3D Game Engine Design by David H. Eberly (http://
> www.magic-software.com/Books.html). jME is built on top of LWJGL.
>
> JAVA is DOOMED (http://javaisdoomed.sourceforge.net) includes  
> loaders for Quake 2 MD2 and 3D Studio Max 3DS files . The  
> implementation uses JOGL, and the distribution includes Escape, a  
> Doom-like game.
>
> Aviatrix3D (http://aviatrix3d.j3d.org/) is a retained-mode Java  
> scene graph API above JOGL. Its tool set is aimed at data  
> visualization rather than gaming, and supports CAVEs, domes, and HMDs.
>
> JView (http://www.rl.af.mil/tech/programs/JVIEW/) is another  
> visualization API, supporting both 2D and 3D graphics, developed by  
> the U.S. Air Force Research Lab. GL4Java, an older low-level Java  
> API for OpenGL, was used to build it.
>
> Espresso3D (http://www.espresso3d.com/), a games-oriented library,  
> includes OpenAL audio, sprites, collision detection, input, and  
> rendering support. It's built using LWJGL.
>
> - Andrew
>

[Jochen Fromm-3]

No, but it would be very interesting to have one.
As you know, OSs with 2D realism (Windows) were the
breakthrough for object-oriented programming. OSs
with 3D realism could be the long awaited breakthrough
for agent-oriented programming. The problem is "game-like"
3D realism is notoriously difficult to achieve..

-J.

-----Original Message-----
From: Owen Densmore
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Animation via Behavior: Killer Game Programming in Java

Now to the question to FRIAM:  Has anyone found a good environment  
for agent based modeling with "game-like" 3D realism and with modest  
libraries for collision detection, scene graphs and so on?

[jpgirard]

Owen,

If you haven't already, check out www.delta3d.org.

It wraps together openscenegraph, open dynamics engine (physics) and
character animation lib (cal3D).
All open-source.

It's a very game-like development environment, with an eye towards the
differences between simulations and games.

However, it is not necessarily geared towards an agent-based approach.


Jim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com]On
> Behalf Of Owen Densmore
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 10:37 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: [FRIAM] Animation via Behavior: Killer Game Programming in Java
>
>
> This may seem a bit odd, but bear with me!
>
> We've been using Processing.org's great graphics system: the
> libraries and the nifty IDE and tools for managing
> "sketchbooks" (projects), building web pages/applets, and even
> building applications for Windows, Mac and Linux.  We've had success
> (i.e. got paid for!) two projects using Processing: a Stadium model,
> and a generalized Data Visualization system.  Quite nice.
>
> So now we've got two interesting environments for modeling: NetLogo,
> our old friend which keeps getting better, and Processing which seems
> great for what I'd call "wire frame" modeling.  We've also got high
> end rendering experience with Blender: we can both use it to build
> Processing meshes for our models and can render agent motion inside
> blender, using NetLogo and Processing output.
>
> BUT we're missing a "sweet spot" in the middle: a fairly realistic 3D
> environment that can do realtime modeling .. i.e. animation via
> behavior.  We also want to have some notion of "physics" .. i.e.
> things bouncing off walls or agents colliding.  (Blender thus far has
> not worked, but we're still poking.)
>
> This prompting me to look into Java graphics and game books, one of
> which is Killer Game Programming in Java.  The book has a website
> which includes a LOT of material that is not in his book:
>    http://fivedots.coe.psu.ac.th/~ad/jg/
> This let to getting in touch with the author, asking for pointers to
> "game engines", see email attached.
>
> Now to the question to FRIAM:  Has anyone found a good environment
> for agent based modeling with "game-like" 3D realism and with modest
> libraries for collision detection, scene graphs and so on?
>
>      -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore   http://backspaces.net
>
> Begin forwarded message:
> > From: "Dr. Andrew Davison" <ad at fivedots.coe.psu.ac.th>
> > Date: September 4, 2006 10:56:45 PM MDT
> > To: Owen Densmore <owen at backspaces.net>
> > Subject: Re: Processing.org
> >
> >
> > Owen,
> >
> > Thanks for the pointer to processing.org. It's a very nice system.
> >
> >> We're also looking for Java "game engines" to make our work
> >> simpler.  Do you have any pointers?
> >
> > Here's a snippet from an article I'm writing:
> >
> > Xith3D (http://xith.org) uses the same basic scene graph structure
> > as Java 3D, but can also directly call OpenGL operations. Since the
> > high-level APIs of Xith3D and Java 3D are so similar, porting Java
> > 3D code over to Xith3D is fairly straightforward. There are
> > versions of Xith3D that run on top of JOGL and LWJGL.
> >
> > jME Graphics Engine (jMonkey Engine, http://
> > www.mojomonkeycoding.com/) was inspired by the scene graph engine
> > described in 3D Game Engine Design by David H. Eberly (http://
> > www.magic-software.com/Books.html). jME is built on top of LWJGL.
> >
> > JAVA is DOOMED (http://javaisdoomed.sourceforge.net) includes
> > loaders for Quake 2 MD2 and 3D Studio Max 3DS files . The
> > implementation uses JOGL, and the distribution includes Escape, a
> > Doom-like game.
> >
> > Aviatrix3D (http://aviatrix3d.j3d.org/) is a retained-mode Java
> > scene graph API above JOGL. Its tool set is aimed at data
> > visualization rather than gaming, and supports CAVEs, domes, and HMDs.
> >
> > JView (http://www.rl.af.mil/tech/programs/JVIEW/) is another
> > visualization API, supporting both 2D and 3D graphics, developed by
> > the U.S. Air Force Research Lab. GL4Java, an older low-level Java
> > API for OpenGL, was used to build it.
> >
> > Espresso3D (http://www.espresso3d.com/), a games-oriented library,
> > includes OpenAL audio, sprites, collision detection, input, and
> > rendering support. It's built using LWJGL.
> >
> > - Andrew
> >
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

[Martin C. Martin-2]

Have you seen breve?

www.spiderland.org

There's a python front-end that's nearing completion; it's been merged
into trunk.

Another solution would be to use Unreal Tournament 2004, which comes
with a good abstraction layer.  The tools are windows only, but the
results run on Windows, Mac and Linux.  There's also quite an active
community.  You can remove all the "game" aspects of it without a lot of
work, and are left with a networked 3D simulation environment.  A
downside is, if other want to run your code, they need to buy a copy of
UT 2004.  Also, it may put off business clients if they have to install
a game to run your stuff.

- Martin

Owen Densmore wrote:

> This may seem a bit odd, but bear with me!
>
> We've been using Processing.org's great graphics system: the  
> libraries and the nifty IDE and tools for managing  
> "sketchbooks" (projects), building web pages/applets, and even  
> building applications for Windows, Mac and Linux.  We've had success  
> (i.e. got paid for!) two projects using Processing: a Stadium model,  
> and a generalized Data Visualization system.  Quite nice.
>
> So now we've got two interesting environments for modeling: NetLogo,  
> our old friend which keeps getting better, and Processing which seems  
> great for what I'd call "wire frame" modeling.  We've also got high  
> end rendering experience with Blender: we can both use it to build  
> Processing meshes for our models and can render agent motion inside  
> blender, using NetLogo and Processing output.
>
> BUT we're missing a "sweet spot" in the middle: a fairly realistic 3D  
> environment that can do realtime modeling .. i.e. animation via  
> behavior.  We also want to have some notion of "physics" .. i.e.  
> things bouncing off walls or agents colliding.  (Blender thus far has  
> not worked, but we're still poking.)
>
> This prompting me to look into Java graphics and game books, one of  
> which is Killer Game Programming in Java.  The book has a website  
> which includes a LOT of material that is not in his book:
>    http://fivedots.coe.psu.ac.th/~ad/jg/
> This let to getting in touch with the author, asking for pointers to  
> "game engines", see email attached.
>
> Now to the question to FRIAM:  Has anyone found a good environment  
> for agent based modeling with "game-like" 3D realism and with modest  
> libraries for collision detection, scene graphs and so on?
>
>      -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore   http://backspaces.net
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>> From: "Dr. Andrew Davison" <ad at fivedots.coe.psu.ac.th>
>> Date: September 4, 2006 10:56:45 PM MDT
>> To: Owen Densmore <owen at backspaces.net>
>> Subject: Re: Processing.org
>>
>>
>> Owen,
>>
>> Thanks for the pointer to processing.org. It's a very nice system.
>>
>>> We're also looking for Java "game engines" to make our work  
>>> simpler.  Do you have any pointers?
>> Here's a snippet from an article I'm writing:
>>
>> Xith3D (http://xith.org) uses the same basic scene graph structure  
>> as Java 3D, but can also directly call OpenGL operations. Since the  
>> high-level APIs of Xith3D and Java 3D are so similar, porting Java  
>> 3D code over to Xith3D is fairly straightforward. There are  
>> versions of Xith3D that run on top of JOGL and LWJGL.
>>
>> jME Graphics Engine (jMonkey Engine, http://
>> www.mojomonkeycoding.com/) was inspired by the scene graph engine  
>> described in 3D Game Engine Design by David H. Eberly (http://
>> www.magic-software.com/Books.html). jME is built on top of LWJGL.
>>
>> JAVA is DOOMED (http://javaisdoomed.sourceforge.net) includes  
>> loaders for Quake 2 MD2 and 3D Studio Max 3DS files . The  
>> implementation uses JOGL, and the distribution includes Escape, a  
>> Doom-like game.
>>
>> Aviatrix3D (http://aviatrix3d.j3d.org/) is a retained-mode Java  
>> scene graph API above JOGL. Its tool set is aimed at data  
>> visualization rather than gaming, and supports CAVEs, domes, and HMDs.
>>
>> JView (http://www.rl.af.mil/tech/programs/JVIEW/) is another  
>> visualization API, supporting both 2D and 3D graphics, developed by  
>> the U.S. Air Force Research Lab. GL4Java, an older low-level Java  
>> API for OpenGL, was used to build it.
>>
>> Espresso3D (http://www.espresso3d.com/), a games-oriented library,  
>> includes OpenAL audio, sprites, collision detection, input, and  
>> rendering support. It's built using LWJGL.
>>
>> - Andrew
>>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Stephen Guerin]

Owen writes:
> BUT we're missing a "sweet spot" in the middle: a fairly
> realistic 3D environment that can do realtime modeling ..
> i.e. animation via behavior.  We also want to have some
> notion of "physics" .. i.e.  
> things bouncing off walls or agents colliding.  (Blender thus
> far has not worked, but we're still poking.)

Blender game engine may still work..though we haven't really pushed it.

Also, as a fun sample just in time for Halloween, here's a nice little
semi-addictive game for Halloween where you get to knock some skulls. My
furthest so far was 55.3 meters. :-)

http://www.sporkle.com/games/monstergame/

Written in Director/Shockwave, it's web deployable, cross-platform (mac/win),
physics engine via Havok and can input bone-animated models from the major
animation tools.

-S

[David Breecker]

Owen, two thoughts:  first, I assume you're familiar with Massive (used for
the battle scenes in Lord of the Rings)?  And second, if you post this query
to the MISP (Media Industries Strategy Project) Listserve, it will be seen
by most of the CGI/animation folks in NM.

Since this was exactly the point of connection we initially envisioned
between your domain and the digital media domain, I'll be interested in the
outcome, as will many others involved in MISP (see: www.altMediaNM.org)
db

----- Original Message -----
From: "Owen Densmore" <[hidden email]>
To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <friam at redfish.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 10:37 AM
Subject: [FRIAM] Animation via Behavior: Killer Game Programming in Java

> This may seem a bit odd, but bear with me!
>
> We've been using Processing.org's great graphics system: the
> libraries and the nifty IDE and tools for managing
> "sketchbooks" (projects), building web pages/applets, and even
> building applications for Windows, Mac and Linux.  We've had success
> (i.e. got paid for!) two projects using Processing: a Stadium model,
> and a generalized Data Visualization system.  Quite nice.
>
> So now we've got two interesting environments for modeling: NetLogo,
> our old friend which keeps getting better, and Processing which seems
> great for what I'd call "wire frame" modeling.  We've also got high
> end rendering experience with Blender: we can both use it to build
> Processing meshes for our models and can render agent motion inside
> blender, using NetLogo and Processing output.
>
> BUT we're missing a "sweet spot" in the middle: a fairly realistic 3D
> environment that can do realtime modeling .. i.e. animation via
> behavior.  We also want to have some notion of "physics" .. i.e.
> things bouncing off walls or agents colliding.  (Blender thus far has
> not worked, but we're still poking.)
>
> This prompting me to look into Java graphics and game books, one of
> which is Killer Game Programming in Java.  The book has a website
> which includes a LOT of material that is not in his book:
>   http://fivedots.coe.psu.ac.th/~ad/jg/
> This let to getting in touch with the author, asking for pointers to
> "game engines", see email attached.
>
> Now to the question to FRIAM:  Has anyone found a good environment
> for agent based modeling with "game-like" 3D realism and with modest
> libraries for collision detection, scene graphs and so on?
>
>     -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore   http://backspaces.net
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>> From: "Dr. Andrew Davison" <ad at fivedots.coe.psu.ac.th>
>> Date: September 4, 2006 10:56:45 PM MDT
>> To: Owen Densmore <owen at backspaces.net>
>> Subject: Re: Processing.org
>>
>>
>> Owen,
>>
>> Thanks for the pointer to processing.org. It's a very nice system.
>>
>>> We're also looking for Java "game engines" to make our work
>>> simpler.  Do you have any pointers?
>>
>> Here's a snippet from an article I'm writing:
>>
>> Xith3D (http://xith.org) uses the same basic scene graph structure
>> as Java 3D, but can also directly call OpenGL operations. Since the
>> high-level APIs of Xith3D and Java 3D are so similar, porting Java
>> 3D code over to Xith3D is fairly straightforward. There are
>> versions of Xith3D that run on top of JOGL and LWJGL.
>>
>> jME Graphics Engine (jMonkey Engine, http://
>> www.mojomonkeycoding.com/) was inspired by the scene graph engine
>> described in 3D Game Engine Design by David H. Eberly (http://
>> www.magic-software.com/Books.html). jME is built on top of LWJGL.
>>
>> JAVA is DOOMED (http://javaisdoomed.sourceforge.net) includes
>> loaders for Quake 2 MD2 and 3D Studio Max 3DS files . The
>> implementation uses JOGL, and the distribution includes Escape, a
>> Doom-like game.
>>
>> Aviatrix3D (http://aviatrix3d.j3d.org/) is a retained-mode Java
>> scene graph API above JOGL. Its tool set is aimed at data
>> visualization rather than gaming, and supports CAVEs, domes, and HMDs.
>>
>> JView (http://www.rl.af.mil/tech/programs/JVIEW/) is another
>> visualization API, supporting both 2D and 3D graphics, developed by
>> the U.S. Air Force Research Lab. GL4Java, an older low-level Java
>> API for OpenGL, was used to build it.
>>
>> Espresso3D (http://www.espresso3d.com/), a games-oriented library,
>> includes OpenAL audio, sprites, collision detection, input, and
>> rendering support. It's built using LWJGL.
>>
>> - Andrew
>>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>

[Bill Eldridge]

Stephen Guerin wrote:

> Owen writes:
>  
>> BUT we're missing a "sweet spot" in the middle: a fairly
>> realistic 3D environment that can do realtime modeling ..
>> i.e. animation via behavior.  We also want to have some
>> notion of "physics" .. i.e.  
>> things bouncing off walls or agents colliding.  (Blender thus
>> far has not worked, but we're still poking.)
>>    
>
> Blender game engine may still work..though we haven't really pushed it.
>
> Also, as a fun sample just in time for Halloween, here's a nice little
> semi-addictive game for Halloween where you get to knock some skulls. My
> furthest so far was 55.3 meters. :-)
>
> http://www.sporkle.com/games/monstergame/
>
> Written in Director/Shockwave, it's web deployable, cross-platform (mac/win),
> physics engine via Havok and can input bone-animated models from the major
> animation tools.
>
> -S
>
>  

A friend says "www.openscenegraph.org <http://www.openscenegraph.org> ,
scenegraph manager, as for physics there is something called ODE that
works nice with mentioned openscenegraph. Java is not my area"
but it looks like there are Java wrappers for openscenegraph, I don't
have any idea whether this is useful
for you or not. Includes an ODE (Open Dynamics Engine) demo at
http://www.openscenegraph.org/osgwiki/uploads/Tutorials/LMBs_ODE_Demo.zip

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[Owen Densmore]

Good responses!  I got some homework to do.

I should also be clear: although I listed mainly Java frameworks,  
others are fine too as long as they are cross-platform (Mac, Windows,  
Linux) and reasonably easy to use.

     -- Owen

Owen Densmore   http://backspaces.net

[Robert Holmes]

How about Microsoft's XNA Game Studio Express?

http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/xna/gse/

>From the blurb on their website, it's "... aimed at helping students and
hobbyists build games for Windows and the Xbox 360". I must admit, I quite
like the idea of taking an Xbox into a client presentation....

Robert



On 10/19/06, Owen Densmore <owen at backspaces.net> wrote:

>
> Good responses!  I got some homework to do.
>
> I should also be clear: although I listed mainly Java frameworks,
> others are fine too as long as they are cross-platform (Mac, Windows,
> Linux) and reasonably easy to use.
>
>      -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore   http://backspaces.net
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

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[Russell Standish]

You might want to check out Breve. It's an ALifer's simulation
environment, so agent based, and has a physics engine. I've seen demos of it
running swarms of boids at ALife 8, and it looked pretty cool.

Cheers

On Thu, Oct 19, 2006 at 10:37:11AM -0600, Owen Densmore wrote:

> This may seem a bit odd, but bear with me!
>
> We've been using Processing.org's great graphics system: the  
> libraries and the nifty IDE and tools for managing  
> "sketchbooks" (projects), building web pages/applets, and even  
> building applications for Windows, Mac and Linux.  We've had success  
> (i.e. got paid for!) two projects using Processing: a Stadium model,  
> and a generalized Data Visualization system.  Quite nice.
>
> So now we've got two interesting environments for modeling: NetLogo,  
> our old friend which keeps getting better, and Processing which seems  
> great for what I'd call "wire frame" modeling.  We've also got high  
> end rendering experience with Blender: we can both use it to build  
> Processing meshes for our models and can render agent motion inside  
> blender, using NetLogo and Processing output.
>
> BUT we're missing a "sweet spot" in the middle: a fairly realistic 3D  
> environment that can do realtime modeling .. i.e. animation via  
> behavior.  We also want to have some notion of "physics" .. i.e.  
> things bouncing off walls or agents colliding.  (Blender thus far has  
> not worked, but we're still poking.)
>
> This prompting me to look into Java graphics and game books, one of  
> which is Killer Game Programming in Java.  The book has a website  
> which includes a LOT of material that is not in his book:
>    http://fivedots.coe.psu.ac.th/~ad/jg/
> This let to getting in touch with the author, asking for pointers to  
> "game engines", see email attached.
>
> Now to the question to FRIAM:  Has anyone found a good environment  
> for agent based modeling with "game-like" 3D realism and with modest  
> libraries for collision detection, scene graphs and so on?
>
>      -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore   http://backspaces.net
>
> Begin forwarded message:
> > From: "Dr. Andrew Davison" <ad at fivedots.coe.psu.ac.th>
> > Date: September 4, 2006 10:56:45 PM MDT
> > To: Owen Densmore <owen at backspaces.net>
> > Subject: Re: Processing.org
> >
> >
> > Owen,
> >
> > Thanks for the pointer to processing.org. It's a very nice system.
> >
> >> We're also looking for Java "game engines" to make our work  
> >> simpler.  Do you have any pointers?
> >
> > Here's a snippet from an article I'm writing:
> >
> > Xith3D (http://xith.org) uses the same basic scene graph structure  
> > as Java 3D, but can also directly call OpenGL operations. Since the  
> > high-level APIs of Xith3D and Java 3D are so similar, porting Java  
> > 3D code over to Xith3D is fairly straightforward. There are  
> > versions of Xith3D that run on top of JOGL and LWJGL.
> >
> > jME Graphics Engine (jMonkey Engine, http://
> > www.mojomonkeycoding.com/) was inspired by the scene graph engine  
> > described in 3D Game Engine Design by David H. Eberly (http://
> > www.magic-software.com/Books.html). jME is built on top of LWJGL.
> >
> > JAVA is DOOMED (http://javaisdoomed.sourceforge.net) includes  
> > loaders for Quake 2 MD2 and 3D Studio Max 3DS files . The  
> > implementation uses JOGL, and the distribution includes Escape, a  
> > Doom-like game.
> >
> > Aviatrix3D (http://aviatrix3d.j3d.org/) is a retained-mode Java  
> > scene graph API above JOGL. Its tool set is aimed at data  
> > visualization rather than gaming, and supports CAVEs, domes, and HMDs.
> >
> > JView (http://www.rl.af.mil/tech/programs/JVIEW/) is another  
> > visualization API, supporting both 2D and 3D graphics, developed by  
> > the U.S. Air Force Research Lab. GL4Java, an older low-level Java  
> > API for OpenGL, was used to build it.
> >
> > Espresso3D (http://www.espresso3d.com/), a games-oriented library,  
> > includes OpenAL audio, sprites, collision detection, input, and  
> > rendering support. It's built using LWJGL.
> >
> > - Andrew
> >
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
*PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
may safely ignore this attachment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone [phone] (mobile)
Mathematics                        
UNSW SYDNEY 2052                 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au            
Australia                                http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
            International prefix  +612, Interstate prefix 02
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Marcus G. Daniels-3]

Owen Densmore wrote:
> I should also be clear: although I listed mainly Java frameworks,  
> others are fine too as long as they are cross-platform (Mac, Windows,  
> Linux) and reasonably easy to use.
>  
yet another:  http://unity3d.com

[Phil Henshaw-2]

Well, then there's that pre-eminent killer game programming tool, our
brains, and the chance of opening up that lock box of killer game
designs we live in, the eventful systems of nature.  

We could learn to steal its charts and triggers better, if we learned
how to watch them in action.  That's the point of the cross platform
principle that the beginning and ending of all of nature's games
requires developmental process, and a simple envelope of growth curves
provides a guide for picking out the successions of events that lie in
them.   Observation was always the first method for extracting new
programming tools from the things we wanted to imitate, work around, or
just play with, and it's no different for the puzzles of shifting order
in systems of change.  


Phil Henshaw                       ????.?? ? `?.????
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040                      
tel: [phone]                
e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com          
explorations: www.synapse9.com    

> -----Original Message-----
> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com
> [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:40 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Animation via Behavior: Killer Game
> Programming in Java
>
>
> Good responses!  I got some homework to do.
>
> I should also be clear: although I listed mainly Java frameworks,  
> others are fine too as long as they are cross-platform (Mac,
> Windows,  
> Linux) and reasonably easy to use.
>
>      -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore   http://backspaces.net
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>

[Jochen Fromm-3]

What do you think is more impressive,
advanced and useful, the new..

..Mac OS X Leopard with "Time Machine",
"Spotlight" and "Ruby on Rails"..
http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html

..or the new Windows Vista
with Aero, WPF and WCF ?
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/ 

-J.

[Douglas Roberts-2]

Mandriva 2007 'la Ora' with KDE 3.5.4 (and a slew of whatever other packages
you prefer)..
http://www.mandriva.com/en/linux/2007

On 10/20/06, fromm <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de> wrote:

>
>
> What do you think is more impressive,
> advanced and useful, the new..
>
> ..Mac OS X Leopard with "Time Machine",
> "Spotlight" and "Ruby on Rails"..
> http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html
>
> ..or the new Windows Vista
> with Aero, WPF and WCF ?
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/
>
> -J.
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

--
Doug Roberts, RTI International
droberts at rti.org
doug at parrot-farm.net
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
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[Russell Standish]

To be quite honest, I prefer the simple interface of FVWM, which I
have been using for more than a decade. I have been singularly unimpressed
by KDE or Gnome (or Aqua for that matter*). I have to use Windows XP
for work, and it drives me insane how clunky the interface seems
compared with fvwm.

Come to think of it, the only thing important about fvwm is the
virtual desktop (I frequently have more than 20 windows open at once,
and nonvirtual desktops do not scale), and also  "Move to focus". "Click
to focus" makes it difficult to compose something in one window by
copying and pasting from other windows.

Yet I appreciate that others seem to find fvwm confusing - my wife is
one of these :).

Cheers

*I owned a Mac running OSX for a little while. Mostly drove it through
Xwindows though, with an <opt-A> to get back to Aqua if I really
needed to use an Aqua specific tool. In the end, the machine developed
a fault and no longer booted OSX, so I installed YellowDog Linux on
it, and never looked back. I use a Dell now :)


On Fri, Oct 20, 2006 at 06:26:33AM -0600, Douglas Roberts wrote:

> Mandriva 2007 'la Ora' with KDE 3.5.4 (and a slew of whatever other packages
> you prefer)..
> http://www.mandriva.com/en/linux/2007
>
> On 10/20/06, fromm <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de> wrote:
> >
> >
> >What do you think is more impressive,
> >advanced and useful, the new..
> >
> >..Mac OS X Leopard with "Time Machine",
> >"Spotlight" and "Ruby on Rails"..
> >http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html
> >
> >..or the new Windows Vista
> >with Aero, WPF and WCF ?
> >http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/
> >
> >-J.
> >
> >
> >============================================================
> >FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> >Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> >lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Doug Roberts, RTI International
> droberts at rti.org
> doug at parrot-farm.net
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-670-8195 - Cell

> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
*PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
may safely ignore this attachment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone [phone] (mobile)
Mathematics                        
UNSW SYDNEY 2052                 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au            
Australia                                http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
            International prefix  +612, Interstate prefix 02
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Owen Densmore]

OK, Doug has brought up a point I've wondered about.

Friamers .. another question .. well three actually .. for you all:
   - Which Linux desktop distros have you used?
   - Which distro do/did you like best?
   - What hardware did you run it on?

Years ago at Sun I was a RedHat + Gnome user .. indeed in 2000-2002,  
it, on the Thinkpad hardware, had taken over SunLabs.  We even put it  
in our JavaCar and found it worked with most of the weird drivers we  
needed.

It was a bit hard to get going on laptops, however.  Audio was quite  
difficult, requiring rebuilding the kernel with new drivers, and  
getting the Sleep function to work correctly was tough.  But all in  
all, RedHat + Gnome + Thinkpad was quite successful.  Gnome was even  
available on Solaris, so the interoperability was great between the  
Sun servers and the laptops.

So anyone else out there taken on the Linux desktop challenge?

     -- Owen

Owen Densmore   http://backspaces.net


Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Douglas Roberts" <doug at parrot-farm.net>
> Date: October 20, 2006 6:26:33 AM MDT
> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group"  
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Leopard vs. Vista
> Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  
> <friam at redfish.com>
>
> Mandriva 2007 'la Ora' with KDE 3.5.4 (and a slew of whatever other  
> packages you prefer)..
> http://www.mandriva.com/en/linux/2007
>
> On 10/20/06, fromm <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de> wrote:
> What do you think is more impressive,
> advanced and useful, the new..
>
> ..Mac OS X Leopard with "Time Machine",
> "Spotlight" and "Ruby on Rails"..
> http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html
>
> ..or the new Windows Vista
> with Aero, WPF and WCF ?
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/
>
> -J.
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>
> --
> Doug Roberts, RTI International
> droberts at rti.org
> doug at parrot-farm.net
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-670-8195 - Cell
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Marcus G. Daniels-3]

fromm wrote:
> What do you think is more impressive,
> advanced and useful, the new..
>
> ..Mac OS X Leopard with "Time Machine",
>  
Has Apple actually extended their filesystem for versioning, or is it
just a pretty backup application with an API developers can hook into?

[Bill Eldridge]

I kind of fancy Knoppix live CD distros ( or copy to harddrive for
minimal bootup requirements.)
These provide application specific knockoffs, so you don't have to
peruse a million packages that you've
no interest in - you choose a narrowed down knockoff to your specific
area and then download
what packages aren't there. And yeah, it's easy to create your own
Knoppix knockoff.
(It's wonderful to have so many packages to choose from, but kind of
like compiling your own
kernel, once the number of options got more than 400,000 or so, it
became a bit painful to
do insightfully).

Owen Densmore wrote:

> OK, Doug has brought up a point I've wondered about.
>
> Friamers .. another question .. well three actually .. for you all:
>    - Which Linux desktop distros have you used?
>    - Which distro do/did you like best?
>    - What hardware did you run it on?
>
> Years ago at Sun I was a RedHat + Gnome user .. indeed in 2000-2002,  
> it, on the Thinkpad hardware, had taken over SunLabs.  We even put it  
> in our JavaCar and found it worked with most of the weird drivers we  
> needed.
>
> It was a bit hard to get going on laptops, however.  Audio was quite  
> difficult, requiring rebuilding the kernel with new drivers, and  
> getting the Sleep function to work correctly was tough.  But all in  
> all, RedHat + Gnome + Thinkpad was quite successful.  Gnome was even  
> available on Solaris, so the interoperability was great between the  
> Sun servers and the laptops.
>
> So anyone else out there taken on the Linux desktop challenge?
>
>      -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore   http://backspaces.net
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>  
>> From: "Douglas Roberts" <doug at parrot-farm.net>
>> Date: October 20, 2006 6:26:33 AM MDT
>> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group"  
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Leopard vs. Vista
>> Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>>
>> Mandriva 2007 'la Ora' with KDE 3.5.4 (and a slew of whatever other  
>> packages you prefer)..
>> http://www.mandriva.com/en/linux/2007
>>
>> On 10/20/06, fromm <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de> wrote:
>> What do you think is more impressive,
>> advanced and useful, the new..
>>
>> ..Mac OS X Leopard with "Time Machine",
>> "Spotlight" and "Ruby on Rails"..
>> http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html
>>
>> ..or the new Windows Vista
>> with Aero, WPF and WCF ?
>> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Doug Roberts, RTI International
>> droberts at rti.org
>> doug at parrot-farm.net
>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>> 505-670-8195 - Cell
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>    
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>  

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[Tim Densmore]

I've probably tried any distro you could name that has an available English
locale.   I've been using linux for several years, and have been using it as
a desktop exclusively for about two years, though I have both Mac and Windows
at my house (Windows sees the light of day about once every three months).  

I've settled on Arch linux after a long, very hard road of trying several
distros that were "almost right" but still had too many irritations for me to
continue using.  Arch is more in the Slackware and Gentoo camp than the
Ubuntu or Fedora camp.  I've discovered that I enjoy doing a certain amount
of stuff myself, though managing packages isn't one of them.  Arch features
what I believe is the best package manager available - pacman.  Arch is
a "bleeding edge" i686 optimized distro that features a "rolling release
system" which means you are always running the latest version, assuming you
are fully up to date.  It also negates the need to reinstall, well, *ever*
unless you blow up your box.  I've certainly had my ups and downs with it,
but after all's said and done, it's home.

I've also really, really been enjoying playing with a new distro called
Frugalware.  It's a very well put together mixture of Slackware and Arch that
has a surprising amount of polish for such a young and relatively small
distro.  It's a pleasure to use, and the devs are a pleasure to work with -
questions are answered quickly and with enthusiasm.  Many if not most of the
devs are not native English speakers, though, if that's an issue for anyone.  
It's not for me, and I can't see why it would be.

Using linux as your primary, and basically only OS can certainly be a
challenge, but I'm fairly dedicated to not running software encumbered by
DRM, etc.  Sometimes it takes some digging to find software that replaces
what you're used to, but often I'm actually happier with the new software
I've replaced my old faves with.  On the other hand, sometimes devs change,
and a project you really loved becomes a nearly unusable mess - kaffeine is
this way for me.  A year ago I'd have told you it was hands down the finest
video player available.  Today, I can barely stand to use it - technically it
still great, but the UI has become seriously horrible.  Freedom in both its
senses is never the easiest road to follow, though, and tradeoffs are always
part of the game.  IMO it's worth the effort, though.



On Friday 20 October 2006 22:27, Owen Densmore wrote:

> OK, Doug has brought up a point I've wondered about.
>
> Friamers .. another question .. well three actually .. for you all:
>    - Which Linux desktop distros have you used?
>    - Which distro do/did you like best?
>    - What hardware did you run it on?
>
> Years ago at Sun I was a RedHat + Gnome user .. indeed in 2000-2002,
> it, on the Thinkpad hardware, had taken over SunLabs.  We even put it
> in our JavaCar and found it worked with most of the weird drivers we
> needed.
>
> It was a bit hard to get going on laptops, however.  Audio was quite
> difficult, requiring rebuilding the kernel with new drivers, and
> getting the Sleep function to work correctly was tough.  But all in
> all, RedHat + Gnome + Thinkpad was quite successful.  Gnome was even
> available on Solaris, so the interoperability was great between the
> Sun servers and the laptops.
>
> So anyone else out there taken on the Linux desktop challenge?
>
>      -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore   http://backspaces.net
>
> Begin forwarded message:
> > From: "Douglas Roberts" <doug at parrot-farm.net>
> > Date: October 20, 2006 6:26:33 AM MDT
> > To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group"
> > <friam at redfish.com>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Leopard vs. Vista
> > Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > <friam at redfish.com>
> >
> > Mandriva 2007 'la Ora' with KDE 3.5.4 (and a slew of whatever other
> > packages you prefer)..
> > http://www.mandriva.com/en/linux/2007
> >
> > On 10/20/06, fromm <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de> wrote:
> > What do you think is more impressive,
> > advanced and useful, the new..
> >
> > ..Mac OS X Leopard with "Time Machine",
> > "Spotlight" and "Ruby on Rails"..
> > http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html
> >
> > ..or the new Windows Vista
> > with Aero, WPF and WCF ?
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/
> >
> > -J.
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Doug Roberts, RTI International
> > droberts at rti.org
> > doug at parrot-farm.net
> > 505-455-7333 - Office
> > 505-670-8195 - Cell
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Russell Standish]

I started with SLS back in '93, my first real PC OS. OK I bought my
first PC (a 16MB 486) from a friend, and he put a bootleg version of
MSDOS on it, which I found to be pretty useless.

I migrated to Slackware around '95 or so, and have stayed with that
distro ever since. I've run it on the original 486 machine, and on its
replacement (a PIII Celeron) which is still running it today.

I got my first laptop (Compaq 486) in '96, and immediately installed
Slackware on it (took a while, as it had to be done via floppy
disks). At this time, I switched from twm to fvwm as my window manager
(and remained there). When that laptop finally bit the dust in 2003, I
bought a new NEC laptop (P4 Celeron) at the time, and installed
Slackware. Sound and graphics were supported natively by the distro,
the WinModem was supported via a (nonfree) open source driver from the
manufacturer. I missed the suspend to RAM feature of my old laptop,
but was able to get Linux hibernation to work after following the
relevant HOWTOs and patching the kernel. The only feature I was unable
to get working was S-video out - which might have been handy for
playing DVDs through a TV set. Buying a cheap DVD player solved that
problem.

Oh - and I couldn't play DVDs until I had first booted Windows,
inserted a DVD and set the region code. After that, DVD playing worked
like a charm.

Since early this year, my work bought be a Dell laptop. Again most
things just work, though again not video out. As I actually need to
use Windows (occasionally) for work, I actually run the Linux under
VMWare, so use Windows hibernation. Works quite well. The main defects
are (and these are VMWare defects):

1) The hotspot in the mouse cursor is in the wrong place.  

2) The virtual hardware clock is incorrectly initialised. I need to
manually resync my clock to an ntp server everytime I wake up the
computer (which is easy to forget to do)

3) No sound! So I have to copy my multimedia files to the windows
partition, and use something like WMP

4) 3 button mouse emulation doesn't work under VMWare. Fortunately,
the Windows trackpad driver has a 3 button emulation mode.  5) I
usually run the network as a virtual NAT sharing the Windows IP
no. The negative of this is that many XWindows apps will not work
remotely (the ones that fail to tunnel through ssh). The alternative
is to bridge the network (give the Linux machine its own IP no.), but
this is less flexible in the networking environment I'm in. What I
should do is set up an IP tunnel on the Windows machine to allow the X
connections through.

Cheers


On Fri, Oct 20, 2006 at 10:27:51PM -0600, Owen Densmore wrote:

> OK, Doug has brought up a point I've wondered about.
>
> Friamers .. another question .. well three actually .. for you all:
>    - Which Linux desktop distros have you used?
>    - Which distro do/did you like best?
>    - What hardware did you run it on?
>
> Years ago at Sun I was a RedHat + Gnome user .. indeed in 2000-2002,  
> it, on the Thinkpad hardware, had taken over SunLabs.  We even put it  
> in our JavaCar and found it worked with most of the weird drivers we  
> needed.
>
> It was a bit hard to get going on laptops, however.  Audio was quite  
> difficult, requiring rebuilding the kernel with new drivers, and  
> getting the Sleep function to work correctly was tough.  But all in  
> all, RedHat + Gnome + Thinkpad was quite successful.  Gnome was even  
> available on Solaris, so the interoperability was great between the  
> Sun servers and the laptops.
>
> So anyone else out there taken on the Linux desktop challenge?
>
>      -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore   http://backspaces.net
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> > From: "Douglas Roberts" <doug at parrot-farm.net>
> > Date: October 20, 2006 6:26:33 AM MDT
> > To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group"  
> > <friam at redfish.com>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Leopard vs. Vista
> > Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  
> > <friam at redfish.com>
> >
> > Mandriva 2007 'la Ora' with KDE 3.5.4 (and a slew of whatever other  
> > packages you prefer)..
> > http://www.mandriva.com/en/linux/2007
> >
> > On 10/20/06, fromm <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de> wrote:
> > What do you think is more impressive,
> > advanced and useful, the new..
> >
> > ..Mac OS X Leopard with "Time Machine",
> > "Spotlight" and "Ruby on Rails"..
> > http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html
> >
> > ..or the new Windows Vista
> > with Aero, WPF and WCF ?
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/
> >
> > -J.
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Doug Roberts, RTI International
> > droberts at rti.org
> > doug at parrot-farm.net
> > 505-455-7333 - Office
> > 505-670-8195 - Cell
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
*PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
may safely ignore this attachment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone [phone] (mobile)
Mathematics                        
UNSW SYDNEY 2052                 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au            
Australia                                http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
            International prefix  +612, Interstate prefix 02
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