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An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

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Nick Thompson

An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

Dear Steve Guerin,

I was staring at the water swirling down the drain this evening and I thought of you (};-]). It has been a very long time since we have had any kind of conversation on this list about self-organizing systems. I was reflecting on the vigor with which the water was rushing AROUND the basin and the slowness with which it seemed to be actually going DOWN the drain, and a little voice said in my ear … I think it was your voice … that spiral in the drain is organized to increase the dissipation of energy. But then my OWN voice said, well then it isn’t doing a very good job of it.

So I wanted to ask you: on your account, do dissipative structures ALWAYS increase the rate of dissipation? Or is it the case that when structures form that obstruct dissipation, these are not dissipative. In which case, what are THESE structures called and when do they form.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

And please, couch your answer in the most general of terms.

-Doug

On Jun 28, 2011 6:59 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Dear Steve Guerin,
>
>
>
> I was staring at the water swirling down the drain this evening and I
> thought of you (};-]). It has been a very long time since we have had any
> kind of conversation on this list about self-organizing systems. I was
> reflecting on the vigor with which the water was rushing AROUND the basin
> and the slowness with which it seemed to be actually going DOWN the drain,
> and a little voice said in my ear . I think it was your voice . that spiral
> in the drain is organized to increase the dissipation of energy. But then
> my OWN voice said, well then it isn't doing a very good job of it.
>
>
>
> So I wanted to ask you: on your account, do dissipative structures ALWAYS
> increase the rate of dissipation? Or is it the case that when structures
> form that obstruct dissipation, these are not dissipative. In which case,
> what are THESE structures called and when do they form.
>

>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>

> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
> http://www.cusf.org <http://www.cusf.org/>
>
>
>
>
>

Nick Thompson

Re: An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

Doug,

I knew that if I got no answer from anybody else, I would get one from you or Steve.

I expected that you would accuse me of being a dissipative structure. Well, you didn’t do THAT exactly.

Actually, ever since those tornados in the spring .. and the one we had here about 20 miles way … I have taken anew interest in drain swirls. The empty space in the middle of the swirl, LOOKS like a little tornado. Is it one?

Explain your answer. In specific terms. (;-])

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:03 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

And please, couch your answer in the most general of terms.

-Doug

On Jun 28, 2011 6:59 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear Steve Guerin,
>
>
>
> I was staring at the water swirling down the drain this evening and I
> thought of you (};-]). It has been a very long time since we have had any
> kind of conversation on this list about self-organizing systems. I was
> reflecting on the vigor with which the water was rushing AROUND the basin
> and the slowness with which it seemed to be actually going DOWN the drain,
> and a little voice said in my ear . I think it was your voice . that spiral
> in the drain is organized to increase the dissipation of energy. But then
> my OWN voice said, well then it isn't doing a very good job of it.
>
>
>
> So I wanted to ask you: on your account, do dissipative structures ALWAYS
> increase the rate of dissipation? Or is it the case that when structures
> form that obstruct dissipation, these are not dissipative. In which case,
> what are THESE structures called and when do they form.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
> http://www.cusf.org <http://www.cusf.org/>
>
>
>
>
>

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

Nick, old friend. I"ll answer your request with another question: were you ever the recipient of a "swirlie" during any of your formative years? I think not; otherwise the physics of the dissapative forces of swirling water would have become ever ingrained into your geststalt.

Affectionately,

-Doug

On Jun 28, 2011 8:20 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Doug,
>
>
>
> I knew that if I got no answer from anybody else, I would get one from you
> or Steve.
>
>
>
> I expected that you would accuse me of being a dissipative structure.
> Well, you didn't do THAT exactly.
>
>
>
> Actually, ever since those tornados in the spring .. and the one we had here
> about 20 miles way . I have taken anew interest in drain swirls. The empty
> space in the middle of the swirl, LOOKS like a little tornado. Is it one?
>

> Explain your answer. In specific terms. (;-])
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
>
>
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf

> Of Douglas Roberts
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:03 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] An Open Letter to Steve Guerin
>
>
>
> And please, couch your answer in the most general of terms.
>
> :)
>
> -Doug
>
> On Jun 28, 2011 6:59 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> Dear Steve Guerin,
>>
>>
>>
>> I was staring at the water swirling down the drain this evening and I
>> thought of you (};-]). It has been a very long time since we have had any
>> kind of conversation on this list about self-organizing systems. I was
>> reflecting on the vigor with which the water was rushing AROUND the basin
>> and the slowness with which it seemed to be actually going DOWN the drain,
>> and a little voice said in my ear . I think it was your voice . that
> spiral
>> in the drain is organized to increase the dissipation of energy. But then
>> my OWN voice said, well then it isn't doing a very good job of it.
>>
>>
>>
>> So I wanted to ask you: on your account, do dissipative structures ALWAYS
>> increase the rate of dissipation? Or is it the case that when structures
>> form that obstruct dissipation, these are not dissipative. In which case,
>> what are THESE structures called and when do they form.

>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas S. Thompson

>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>
>> http://www.cusf.org <http://www.cusf.org/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

Oh, I'm fairly certain at least *one* friamer has had first-hand experience with swirling: http://www.urbandictionary.com/iphone/#define?term=swirly

Guaranteed to provide an unforgettable intuitive understanding of the fluid dynamics of spiraling fluids.

On Jun 28, 2011 8:50 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Good LORD NO?????!!!!
>

>
>
> What have I missed. Perhaps you had better tell me off line.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf

> Of Douglas Roberts
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:29 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] An Open Letter to Steve Guerin
>
>
>
> Nick, old friend. I"ll answer your request with another question: were you
> ever the recipient of a "swirlie" during any of your formative years? I
> think not; otherwise the physics of the dissapative forces of swirling water
> would have become ever ingrained into your geststalt.
>
> Affectionately,
>
> -Doug
>
> On Jun 28, 2011 8:20 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> Doug,
>>
>>
>>
>> I knew that if I got no answer from anybody else, I would get one from you
>> or Steve.
>>
>>
>>
>> I expected that you would accuse me of being a dissipative structure.
>> Well, you didn't do THAT exactly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually, ever since those tornados in the spring .. and the one we had
> here
>> about 20 miles way . I have taken anew interest in drain swirls. The empty
>> space in the middle of the swirl, LOOKS like a little tornado. Is it one?
>>
>> Explain your answer. In specific terms. (;-])
>>
>>
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf
>> Of Douglas Roberts
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:03 PM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] An Open Letter to Steve Guerin
>>
>>
>>
>> And please, couch your answer in the most general of terms.
>>
>> :)
>>
>> -Doug
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2011 6:59 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> Dear Steve Guerin,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was staring at the water swirling down the drain this evening and I
>>> thought of you (};-]). It has been a very long time since we have had any
>>> kind of conversation on this list about self-organizing systems. I was
>>> reflecting on the vigor with which the water was rushing AROUND the basin
>>> and the slowness with which it seemed to be actually going DOWN the
> drain,
>>> and a little voice said in my ear . I think it was your voice . that
>> spiral
>>> in the drain is organized to increase the dissipation of energy. But then
>>> my OWN voice said, well then it isn't doing a very good job of it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So I wanted to ask you: on your account, do dissipative structures ALWAYS
>>> increase the rate of dissipation? Or is it the case that when structures
>>> form that obstruct dissipation, these are not dissipative. In which case,
>>> what are THESE structures called and when do they form.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>>
>>> Clark University
>>>
>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>>
>>> http://www.cusf.org <http://www.cusf.org/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Victoria Hughes

Re: An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

I'd like to ditto a part of what Nick is saying to SG: Despite the brevity of your presentation at Notions of Time, your way of showing and telling has stayed with me clearly. I notice turbulence, and gradients, and the visual with the plastic bottles neck in neck or head to head was effective enough to remain an accessible didactic example long after your admittedly frustrating few minutes were over.

Always wanted to hear you speak and show - Teach - on the topic again. Perhaps time for a presentation? I'd be there, and bring people.

Victoria

On Jun 28, 2011, at 8:18 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

Doug,

I knew that if I got no answer from anybody else, I would get one from you or Steve.

I expected that you would accuse me of being a dissipative structure. Well, you didn’t do THAT exactly.

Actually, ever since those tornados in the spring .. and the one we had here about 20 miles way … I have taken anew interest in drain swirls. The empty space in the middle of the swirl, LOOKS like a little tornado. Is it one?
Explain your answer. In specific terms. (;-])

N

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:03 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

And please, couch your answer in the most general of terms.
:)
-Doug
On Jun 28, 2011 6:59 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear Steve Guerin,
>
>
>
> I was staring at the water swirling down the drain this evening and I
> thought of you (};-]). It has been a very long time since we have had any
> kind of conversation on this list about self-organizing systems. I was
> reflecting on the vigor with which the water was rushing AROUND the basin
> and the slowness with which it seemed to be actually going DOWN the drain,
> and a little voice said in my ear . I think it was your voice . that spiral
> in the drain is organized to increase the dissipation of energy. But then
> my OWN voice said, well then it isn't doing a very good job of it.
>
>
>
> So I wanted to ask you: on your account, do dissipative structures ALWAYS
> increase the rate of dissipation? Or is it the case that when structures
> form that obstruct dissipation, these are not dissipative. In which case,
> what are THESE structures called and when do they form.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
> http://www.cusf.org <http://www.cusf.org/>
>
>
>
>
>
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Steve Smith

Re: An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

OK, I kept the nonsense part of my response on this one to the implicated parties only.. here is the moresense part:

Nick -

I've stared into a lot of vortices in my time, and I have to say I find them *very* efficient. I understand that the rotational velocity of the water (relative to it's actually going *down* the drain) seems excessive, but my intuition contradicts yours, I suspect that the water is leaving the drain *faster* than it would be if it were not aswirl.

I've a rain barrel with a hose outlet near the bottom... the rate of flow from the hose into my apricot tree does not seem to diminish as the water level approaches the hose hole and a (noticeable) vortex forms. There appears to be no vortex until the water level is a few inches from the hose inlet.

As the head of the water approaches nil, I would expect a significant drop in flow rate... basic physics would suggest that the resistance to flow is a function of the (square of) the velocity at the surface of the hose... viscosity would lead to laminar flow with the center of the flow being somewhat speedier than at the hose surface. It is this flow-gradient in a circular context (I believe) that gives rise to the swirlies... the actual rate of swirling, size of vortex, etc, is limited by the water viscosity and the pressure (head) methinks. Stephen is saying "symmetry break! symmetry break!" and I'm nodding in agreement that without the symmetry break, the water just gurgles on down.

In the water-bottle swirl example, it is exaggerated because there is fluid trying to get into the bottom bottle against a counter flow of air... and the surface tension adds to the obstruction in the non-swirlie regime.

Maybe our own Peter Lissaman has some insight into this question?

- Steve
Doug,

I knew that if I got no answer from anybody else, I would get one from you or Steve.

I expected that you would accuse me of being a dissipative structure. Well, you didn’t do THAT exactly.

Actually, ever since those tornados in the spring .. and the one we had here about 20 miles way … I have taken anew interest in drain swirls. The empty space in the middle of the swirl, LOOKS like a little tornado. Is it one?

Explain your answer. In specific terms. (;-])

N

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:03 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

And please, couch your answer in the most general of terms.

:)

-Doug

On Jun 28, 2011 6:59 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Dear Steve Guerin,
>
>
>
> I was staring at the water swirling down the drain this evening and I
> thought of you (};-]). It has been a very long time since we have had any
> kind of conversation on this list about self-organizing systems. I was
> reflecting on the vigor with which the water was rushing AROUND the basin
> and the slowness with which it seemed to be actually going DOWN the drain,
> and a little voice said in my ear . I think it was your voice . that spiral
> in the drain is organized to increase the dissipation of energy. But then
> my OWN voice said, well then it isn't doing a very good job of it.
>
>
>
> So I wanted to ask you: on your account, do dissipative structures ALWAYS
> increase the rate of dissipation? Or is it the case that when structures
> form that obstruct dissipation, these are not dissipative. In which case,
> what are THESE structures called and when do they form.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
> http://www.cusf.org <http://www.cusf.org/>
>
>
>
>
>
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Russell Standish

Re: An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

These things were known as "Royal Flushes" downunder :). Urban
Dictionary doesn't seem to know the term in that sense, though...

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 09:25:03PM -0600, Douglas Roberts wrote:

> Oh, I'm fairly certain at least *one* friamer has had first-hand experience
> with swirling: http://www.urbandictionary.com/iphone/#define?term=swirly
>
> Guaranteed to provide an unforgettable intuitive understanding of the fluid
> dynamics of spiraling fluids.
> On Jun 28, 2011 8:50 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Good LORD NO?????!!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > What have I missed. Perhaps you had better tell me off line.
> >
> >
> >
> > N
> >
> >
> >
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf
> > Of Douglas Roberts
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:29 PM
> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] An Open Letter to Steve Guerin
> >
> >
> >
> > Nick, old friend. I"ll answer your request with another question: were you
> > ever the recipient of a "swirlie" during any of your formative years? I
> > think not; otherwise the physics of the dissapative forces of swirling
> water
> > would have become ever ingrained into your geststalt.
> >
> > Affectionately,
> >
> > -Doug
> >
> > On Jun 28, 2011 8:20 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >> Doug,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I knew that if I got no answer from anybody else, I would get one from
> you
> >> or Steve.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I expected that you would accuse me of being a dissipative structure.
> >> Well, you didn't do THAT exactly.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Actually, ever since those tornados in the spring .. and the one we had
> > here
> >> about 20 miles way . I have taken anew interest in drain swirls. The
> empty
> >> space in the middle of the swirl, LOOKS like a little tornado. Is it one?
> >>
> >> Explain your answer. In specific terms. (;-])
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> N
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf
> >> Of Douglas Roberts
> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:03 PM
> >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] An Open Letter to Steve Guerin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> And please, couch your answer in the most general of terms.
> >>
> >> :)
> >>
> >> -Doug
> >>
> >> On Jun 28, 2011 6:59 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>> Dear Steve Guerin,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I was staring at the water swirling down the drain this evening and I
> >>> thought of you (};-]). It has been a very long time since we have had
> any
> >>> kind of conversation on this list about self-organizing systems. I was
> >>> reflecting on the vigor with which the water was rushing AROUND the
> basin
> >>> and the slowness with which it seemed to be actually going DOWN the
> > drain,
> >>> and a little voice said in my ear . I think it was your voice . that
> >> spiral
> >>> in the drain is organized to increase the dissipation of energy. But
> then
> >>> my OWN voice said, well then it isn't doing a very good job of it.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So I wanted to ask you: on your account, do dissipative structures
> ALWAYS
> >>> increase the rate of dissipation? Or is it the case that when structures
> >>> form that obstruct dissipation, these are not dissipative. In which
> case,
> >>> what are THESE structures called and when do they form.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Nick
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Nicholas S. Thompson
> >>>
> >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
> >>>
> >>> Clark University
> >>>
> >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
> >>>
> >>> http://www.cusf.org <http://www.cusf.org/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >

> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email]
University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Steve Smith

Re: An Open Letter to Steve Guerin

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick -

Thanks for the answer. I can imagine that you are correct if I anthropomorphise the molecules as assume that swirling works in the same way as cars at a british roundabout.

Wikipedia gives a typical and relatively useful description of Vortices. Despite my education in Physics (up through some graduate courses), I have to admit to still being puzzled by many of the nuances of vortices and more to the point, their conserved quantity of vorticity! The description of Free (irrotational) vortices is the most relevant bit.

Once again, I hope someone more intimately familiar with fluid dynamics (but able to pull back and describe the forest, not just the microstructure of the surfaces of the leaves on the twigs on the branches on the trees in the groves) can help us out here. Peter?

In the tub drain (or maelstrom or cyclonic disturbances) we have a 3-dimensional system... in the drain example, there is a constrained exit which allows/requires a speedup of the water as it leaves through the drain. In large scale systems, the coriolis force informs the direction of the swirlie, more commonly known as a vortex (no snickering Doug) but in the small scale ones, the direction is a function of local (initial) conditions.

Isn’t there an empirical test we could do, here? Build a structure that is a sort of a radial grid that keeps the water confined to sectors of the sink Am I correct that your prediction would be that the swirling water would depart the sink faster?

I think you are describing a set of pie-shaped chambers with a drain at the point of each? I think you would see a swirlie form at each point, and yes, I think you would see an overall reduction in flow. Depending on your design, you would just have a collection of basins with drains.

What about the second part of my question? Are there structures formed in these situations that slow the rate of dissipation.

This is a good question. Though I'm not sure that "rate of dissipation" is the quantity you are seeking? I presume by this term you mean the rate at which the water flows from the basin?   There *is* dissipation of the kinetic energy in the vortex as the laminar flow causes some of the kinetic energy to be converted to heat (unstructured intermolecular kinetic energy).

The vortex *is* a structure which increases the rate of conversion of potential to kinetic energy. The viscosity of the water, the depth of the water, the size of the outlet, etc. all conspire to *limit* the rate of dissipation (the speed and scale of the vortex). In atmospheric cyclonics (and maybe maelstrae as well?) there often form anti-cyclonic "daughter" vortices which *again* increase the rate of dissipation (yet more). I believe that the "rate of dissipation" in an irrotational vortex is a function of the delta V in the rotational laminar flow.   The distance over which the velocity changes is increased from a minimum (no rotation) to a maximum (at the stable size/speed of the resulting vortex)? but I'm not sure that is what you are seeking?

Maybe you are asking "what features of the structure present these constraints?". I'm obviously too lazy (typical FRIAM behaviour?) to actually sit down and sort out the equations, but my intuition suggests that the viscosity and density of the fluid (water in most bathtubs) and (perhaps?) the depth of the water above the opening, the vertical height of the "swirlie", and the gravity (swirlies on Jupiter anyone?), are the only (primary?) constants implicated.   I don't think you are asking for an equation you can solve, but rather for an intuitive understanding of the forces involved?

The closest thing to a simple answer is "yes", there are features of the structures which form to increase the flow which ultimately put an upper limit on that flow, that is why secondary structures then form, to continue the cascade of energy conversion.

If you stare into vortices as much as I do, you have noticed that they also form secondary structure, the vortex line of real world vortices is a low pitch spiral which precesses...   this would also result in increasing the rate of converting potential (water at a height) into kinetic (water flowing to a lower height). and of course, the "daughter" or "sibling" vortices.

As you turn up the flow of the faucet from drip to dribble to flow, does the relative rate of dissipation never go down?

Is this a different question?

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org