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Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

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plissaman

Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

I have enjoyed the plethora of Wisdom apropos contemporary mores and innovation from Friam correspondents: finally a reply is irresistible. But I can respond only with banal facts I have personally experienced and know to be true.

On dumth: I have earned a living in Africa, New Zealand, England and USA. During my years in the US I have found people to be generous, open-minded, honorable and mainly smarter than me. And folks here are significantly more civilized and humane than those in any other continent that I have worked in. So I am surprised at Friam correspondents’ apparent contempt for our fellow citizens - mebbe they know whereof they prattle, mebbe not.

On innovation: the sage advice is all correct - and all irrelevant. I have spent decades working professionally with DARPA, NASA, DOD, US Renewable Energy Institute, many aerospace corps, and as a consultant for patent applications . I continually witness a brilliant, humbling, kaleidoscope of new ideas. I reckon, before pontificating, pundits should establish qualifications of their own creativity: patents issued, original papers and articles, senior managerial accomplishments. Perhaps they are too modest to list these.

I love reading the Friam stuff as fiction. I think Joyceans call it Stream of Consciousness. It would be very nice if people provided specific support for their assertions.

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

glen e. p. ropella-2

Re: Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

Thus spake [hidden email] circa 10-02-16 01:34 PM:
> I love reading the Friam stuff as fiction. Â I think Joyceans call
> it S tream of C onsciousness.Â Â It would be very nic e Â if people
> provided specific support for their assertions.

All good fiction has its basis in fact.... otherwise it's not considered
"good". ;-) So, if you enjoy FRIAM as fiction, then you implicitly
admit there is some truth embedded within the fiction... unless,
perhaps, you enjoy reading fiction you've deemed "bad fiction". That
sounds to me like "rubber-necking" or schadenfreude, where seemingly
normal people get a kick out of the misfortune of others. And if that's
the case, then well, I'd have to argue that there still must be
_something_ within the fiction you fundamentally enjoy, even if it's not
what you'd call "truth". And if we take a Spinozan approach, then
because you _enjoy_ it, it must be in some sense "good". So, even
though you deem it "bad fiction", you actually think that its "good bad
fiction", which again means that there must be some truth to the good
bad fiction, otherwise you wouldn't enjoy it. [grin] Iterate at will.

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

In reply to this post by plissaman

Peter,

A bit of Santa Feana for you Joyce lovers.

Did you know that there is a Joyce group in Town here that meets weekly to read and discuss Joyces work? This week they are working through Portrait of the Artist, chapter by chapter, and Finnegan's Wake, sentence by sentence. The group is led by an actor named Adam Harvey, who distinguishes himself (I am not kidding) by being able to recite more or less any passage of Finnegan's Wake from memory.

Anybody is welcome.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/16/2010 2:34:04 PM

Subject: [FRIAM] Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

I have enjoyed the plethora of Wisdom apropos contemporary mores and innovation from Friam correspondents: finally a reply is irresistible.   But I can respond only with banal facts I have personally experienced and know to be true.

On dumth: I have earned a living in Africa, New Zealand, England and USA. During my years in the US I have found people to be generous, open-minded, honorable and mainly smarter than me.   And folks here are significantly more civilized and humane than those in any other continent that I have worked in. So I am surprised at Friam correspondentsâ apparent contempt for our fellow citizens - mebbe they know whereof they prattle, mebbe not.

On innovation: the sage advice is all correct - and all irrelevant.   I have spent decades working professionally with DARPA, NASA, DOD, US Renewable Energy Institute, many aerospace corps, and as a consultant for patent applications .   I continually witness a brilliant, humbling, kaleidoscope of new ideas. I reckon, before pontificating, pundits should establish qualifications of their own creativity: patents issued, original papers and articles, senior managerial accomplishments. Perhaps they are too modest to list these.

I love reading the Friam stuff as fiction. I think Joyceans call it Stream of Consciousness.   It would be very nice if people provided specific support for their assertions.

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728

Robert Holmes

Re: Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

Nick - When? Where? -- R

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Peter,

A bit of Santa Feana for you Joyce lovers.

Did you know that there is a Joyce group in Town here that meets weekly to read and discuss Joyces work? This week they are working through Portrait of the Artist, chapter by chapter, and Finnegan's Wake, sentence by sentence. The group is led by an actor named Adam Harvey, who distinguishes himself (I am not kidding) by being able to recite more or less any passage of Finnegan's Wake from memory.

Anybody is welcome.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/16/2010 2:34:04 PM

Subject: [FRIAM] Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

I have enjoyed the plethora of Wisdom apropos contemporary mores and innovation from Friam correspondents: finally a reply is irresistible.   But I can respond only with banal facts I have personally experienced and know to be true.

On dumth: I have earned a living in Africa, New Zealand, England and USA. During my years in the US I have found people to be generous, open-minded, honorable and mainly smarter than me.   And folks here are significantly more civilized and humane than those in any other continent that I have worked in. So I am surprised at Friam correspondents’ apparent contempt for our fellow citizens - mebbe they know whereof they prattle, mebbe not.

On innovation: the sage advice is all correct - and all irrelevant.   I have spent decades working professionally with DARPA, NASA, DOD, US Renewable Energy Institute, many aerospace corps, and as a consultant for patent applications .   I continually witness a brilliant, humbling, kaleidoscope of new ideas. I reckon, before pontificating, pundits should establish qualifications of their own creativity: patents issued, original papers and articles, senior managerial accomplishments. Perhaps they are too modest to list these.

I love reading the Friam stuff as fiction. I think Joyceans call it Stream of Consciousness.   It would be very nice if people provided specific support for their assertions.

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

Peter,

Can we expect an analysis? ;-)

http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/2010-February/012181.html

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Owen Densmore

Re: Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

Administrator

In reply to this post by plissaman

Nice to have the optimism on the list. And for me realism too .. I agree: my personal experience is in line with yours. Most pessimism comes from abstractions, not close personal experience.

-- Owen

On Feb 16, 2010, at 2:34 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb
I have enjoyed the plethora of Wisdom apropos contemporary mores and innovation from Friam correspondents: finally a reply is irresistible.   But I can respond only with banal facts I have personally experienced and know to be true.
On dumth: I have earned a living in Africa, New Zealand, England and USA.  During my years in the US I have found people to be generous, open-minded, honorable and mainly smarter than me.   And folks here are significantly more civilized and humane than those in any other continent that I have worked in.  So I am surprised at Friam correspondents’ apparent contempt for our fellow citizens -  mebbe they know whereof they prattle, mebbe not.
On innovation: the sage advice is all correct - and all irrelevant.   I have spent decades working professionally with DARPA, NASA, DOD, US  Renewable Energy Institute, many aerospace corps, and as a consultant for patent applications .   I continually witness a brilliant, humbling, kaleidoscope of new ideas.  I reckon, before pontificating, pundits should establish qualifications of their own creativity:  patents issued, original papers and articles, senior managerial accomplishments.  Perhaps they are too modest to list these.
I love reading the Friam stuff as fiction. I think Joyceans call it Stream of Consciousness.   It would be very nice if people provided specific support for their assertions.

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

Can you point to a study which validates this contention, Owen? Or is it more of an opinion?

Mine (opinion) is that pessimism is largely born out of experience.

--Doug

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Most pessimism comes from abstractions, not close personal experience.

   -- Owen

On Feb 16, 2010, at 2:34 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

I have enjoyed the plethora of Wisdom apropos contemporary mores and innovation from Friam correspondents: finally a reply is irresistible.   But I can respond only with banal facts I have personally experienced and know to be true.

On dumth: I have earned a living in Africa, New Zealand, England and USA.  During my years in the US I have found people to be generous, open-minded, honorable and mainly smarter than me.   And folks here are significantly more civilized and humane than those in any other continent that I have worked in.  So I am surprised at Friam correspondents’ apparent contempt for our fellow citizens -  mebbe they know whereof they prattle, mebbe not.

On innovation: the sage advice is all correct - and all irrelevant.   I have spent decades working professionally with DARPA, NASA, DOD, US  Renewable Energy Institute, many aerospace corps, and as a consultant for patent applications .   I continually witness a brilliant, humbling, kaleidoscope of new ideas.  I reckon, before pontificating, pundits should establish qualifications of their own creativity:  patents issued, original papers and articles, senior managerial accomplishments.  Perhaps they are too modest to list these.

I love reading the Friam stuff as fiction. I think Joyceans call it Stream of Consciousness.   It would be very nice if people provided specific support for their assertions.

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728

Owen Densmore

Re: Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

Administrator

It's self observation: I am far more likely to become pessimistic over abstractions.

Example: Santa Fe Police. Looked pretty grim in terms of capabilities and editorials in the news paper. Yet working with them showed them to be far more professional than I had thought. And I was told specifically by the police chief that, yes, they get bad apples and they fire them asap.

Similar the court system. On jury duty, I was amazed at the understanding and care that Judge Michael Vigil showed, and the joint programs he had set up with the police and judiciary to cure rather than punish.

Ditto with the fire department in wild fire and evacuation work: they are far more professional than I had expected.

I can go on for quite a while, but you get the picture.

-- Owen

On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:28 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

Can you point to a study which validates this contention, Owen? Or is it more of an opinion?

Mine (opinion) is that pessimism is largely born out of experience.

--Doug

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Most pessimism comes from abstractions, not close personal experience.

   -- Owen

On Feb 16, 2010, at 2:34 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

I have enjoyed the plethora of Wisdom apropos contemporary mores and innovation from Friam correspondents: finally a reply is irresistible.   But I can respond only with banal facts I have personally experienced and know to be true.

On dumth: I have earned a living in Africa, New Zealand, England and USA.  During my years in the US I have found people to be generous, open-minded, honorable and mainly smarter than me.   And folks here are significantly more civilized and humane than those in any other continent that I have worked in.  So I am surprised at Friam correspondents’ apparent contempt for our fellow citizens -  mebbe they know whereof they prattle, mebbe not.

On innovation: the sage advice is all correct - and all irrelevant.   I have spent decades working professionally with DARPA, NASA, DOD, US  Renewable Energy Institute, many aerospace corps, and as a consultant for patent applications .   I continually witness a brilliant, humbling, kaleidoscope of new ideas.  I reckon, before pontificating, pundits should establish qualifications of their own creativity:  patents issued, original papers and articles, senior managerial accomplishments.  Perhaps they are too modest to list these.

I love reading the Friam stuff as fiction. I think Joyceans call it Stream of Consciousness.   It would be very nice if people provided specific support for their assertions.

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Steve Smith

Re: Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Douglas Roberts wrote:
> Can you point to a study which validates this contention, Owen? Or is
> it more of an opinion?

My opinion is that both Pessimism and Optimism are born entirely out of
abstractions, social expectations and possibly blood/brain chemistry.
It is how we frame what we experience, not a direct result of what we
experience.

Anecdotal evidence abounds that many people living in what most of us
would call horrid/challenging conditions can be quite hopeful and
optimistic while others (like most of us on this list) who live
entitled, unchallenging (at a survival/physical/health level) are prone
to being cynical and pessimistic.

I think there is a connection between pessimism/optimism and experience
but it is not direct and it is not positive in sense.

But me, I'm a pessimistic optimist... I prefer a worldview, a
background assumption that "all is right" but with the predilection to
recognize the absurd and ironic woven into that. It exhibits itself
in my behaviour as "morbid fascination".

Nick (and others) may be able to cite some hard(ish?) studies and data
on this topic?

- Steve

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

glen e. p. ropella-2

Re: Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10-02-17 09:28 AM:
> Can you point to a study which validates this contention, Owen? Or is it
> more of an opinion?
>
> Mine (opinion) is that pessimism is largely born out of experience.

I caution you from going down the false dichotomy rabbit hole. Optimism
and pessimism are not disjoint, nor are they simple. One can take a
pessimistic view when criticizing, say, a publication or theory, but be
an optimist in general. Likewise, one can be a generally depressed
person (typically associated with pessimism) but consistently put forth
optimistic rhetoric. I suspect it's relatively common for one to be
pessimistic in some domains and optimistic in other domains, as well. I
also suspect that people oscillate between degrees of optimism and
pessimism over time.

And don't forget the research that claims competent people tend to be
optimists regarding the competence of their fellows and pessimists
regarding their own competence.

So, there is clinical psych evidence that _validates_ (i.e. fails to
falsify) both extremes of the false dichotomy; but validation is much
less useful than one might think, because validation is a form of
induction from the actual results of the experiments, generalizing up to
the hoity-toity "conclusions" of the end user.

My guess is that effective and efficient realists are born of an
adaptive mixture of pessimism and optimism. Anyone who is dominated by
either mode, especially if the mode doesn't change in correlation with
changes in the environment, probably has a very inaccurate view of reality.

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

I have a few similar, yet polar opposite examples:

I have good health coverage, on paper. In practice, United Health Care chose to disallow *every* claim we submitted over the past two years. We had to shove each and every claim down their collective throat to get reimbursed.
Obama, in rhetoric, sounded just peachy. In practice, it's just another case of same politicians, different day.
Bought some new tires from Sears, limited lifetime warranty. One of them was square, it took threatening to launch an anti-Sears net campaign to get them to replace their defective product.

You get the picture...

--Doug

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's self observation: I am far more likely to become pessimistic over abstractions.

Example: Santa Fe Police. Looked pretty grim in terms of capabilities and editorials in the news paper. Yet working with them showed them to be far more professional than I had thought. And I was told specifically by the police chief that, yes, they get bad apples and they fire them asap.

Similar the court system. On jury duty, I was amazed at the understanding and care that Judge Michael Vigil showed, and the joint programs he had set up with the police and judiciary to cure rather than punish.

Ditto with the fire department in wild fire and evacuation work: they are far more professional than I had expected.

I can go on for quite a while, but you get the picture.

   -- Owen

On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:28 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

Can you point to a study which validates this contention, Owen? Or is it more of an opinion?

Mine (opinion) is that pessimism is largely born out of experience.

--Doug

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Most pessimism comes from abstractions, not close personal experience.

   -- Owen

On Feb 16, 2010, at 2:34 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Americans: Neither Ugly nor Dumb

I have enjoyed the plethora of Wisdom apropos contemporary mores and innovation from Friam correspondents: finally a reply is irresistible.   But I can respond only with banal facts I have personally experienced and know to be true.

On dumth: I have earned a living in Africa, New Zealand, England and USA.  During my years in the US I have found people to be generous, open-minded, honorable and mainly smarter than me.   And folks here are significantly more civilized and humane than those in any other continent that I have worked in.  So I am surprised at Friam correspondents’ apparent contempt for our fellow citizens -  mebbe they know whereof they prattle, mebbe not.

On innovation: the sage advice is all correct - and all irrelevant.   I have spent decades working professionally with DARPA, NASA, DOD, US  Renewable Energy Institute, many aerospace corps, and as a consultant for patent applications .   I continually witness a brilliant, humbling, kaleidoscope of new ideas.  I reckon, before pontificating, pundits should establish qualifications of their own creativity:  patents issued, original papers and articles, senior managerial accomplishments.  Perhaps they are too modest to list these.

I love reading the Friam stuff as fiction. I think Joyceans call it Stream of Consciousness.   It would be very nice if people provided specific support for their assertions.

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell