About "barter":
(Google is our friend: 'real estate exchage tax' yields this link: tom On Apr 12, 2009, at 9:27 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: Nice point about money. I believe that even barter exchanges are construed as income. So there is no escape from the taxation trap except, perhaps, complete self-sufficiency. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
If you'd like to get a sense of how the economy works, see if you can get your hands on a MONIAC (or more likely a software emulation of one) - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MONIAC_Computer . It's a water powered analogue computer that was built in 1949 to get an understanding of money flows in a national economy.
However you should also check Terry Pratchett's Discworld novel "Making Money" in which it was discovered that as these analogue computers get increasingly accurate they start to directly effect the reality that they are modeling. Horrible and perilous feedback loops result...
Robert
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In reply to this post by Tom Carter
I'll have to read that paper soon ... but if there's something in the first paragraph that is blatantly wrong, it's so hard to keep reading.
I think the problem with Marx is he keeps confusing continuous phenomena with binary ones. Take this sentence: "If they [the working class] could produce their own means of subsistence, they would not be compelled to sell their labor-power to capitalists." They could - and did - produce their own subsistence back in the day. But then someone figured out it's not much harder to make two loafs of bread than it is to make one. So he had one to eat, and one to trade.
Then, since this guy had all this extra bread, another guy figured he could concentrate on fishing all day, then trade some fish for some bread. Both of them were more efficient, so they had extra food to have some kids. Or take a nap. Whichever.
These working class folks don't sell their "labor-power" to capitalists because they are forced to. They do it because it's more efficient to make money and buy lots of different things than it is to become proficient at making - or growing, or catching - lots of different things for themselves.
Money emerges because it also makes us more efficient. We can "store" excess production to be used whenever we want; therefore, there is less waste associated with being more productive. If we save up enough of this excess, we can then trade it for labor and material to build capital-intensive efficiencies ... thereby producing even more excess. Eventually, the "things we need" become much cheaper relative to the "things we want."
Anyway, it may be true that a "land tax" could force a society to create money. But money will spring up all on it's own, simply because it's more efficient. Money is just a way to store excess production. Any durable good will do the same thing. But the magic of money is that it is not, inherently, worth anything ... except by mutual agreement of everyone.
Oh, sure ... money used to be worth something. The earliest banks were a place for the wealthy (or anyone will excess stored production) to keep their stuff safe. Not just gold - anything. Tools, rugs, furniture, gems - whatever. The "bankers" assigned a value in some common, durable resource - such as gold or silver, or coins of the realm - and that was how much "equity" the rich folks had. Then someone with credit in a bank could write a note saying, "Please pay (insert name here) ten gold coins upon receipt of this note," in order to buy a horse. The guy who just sold the horse can then take that "check" to the proper bank at his leisure and get his coins.
OR ... he could trade that check for a keg of beer and a pig. But it's easier (more efficient) to buy beer and pigs from two different people. And it's safer to keep the coins in the bank until their needed. So banking spread, slowly, down to the masses. And eventually we figured out that we don't really need the gold to back up the money, and therefore we freed our wealth from the constraint of material goods completely. Then we all got rich.
I guess you could call it "trust." But we really just developed better and better ways to verify if the check, or bank note, was "good." We developed systems - account numbers, signatures, identification - that work well enough so that fraud is minimized. Soon the system was so robust that money - worthless, wonderful money - became nothing more than an idea that everyone agreed on.
Anyway, I guess I have the same problem as Russ, writing more than I meant to. But I agree - Pratchett is a great source for this sort of thing. So is Neal Stephenson. But Pratchett is funnier.
Cheers, Ted
On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Tom Carter <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
I found this link on markets today: it says it is precisely the less complex
systems that can be planned and the more complex systems that must develop spontaneously. Quite paradox. http://www.libertarianism.org/ex-9.html It says nothing about the invisible hand from Adam Smith, though. Do you think we have an agent-based model which explains the self-regulating nature of markets ? -J. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Perhaps complexity is not in the quantity of the agents, but the quantity of
the rules each agent must obey. So what are the requirements and rules of a free market? My guess of an incomplete set are: OBSERVATIONS: The grass is greener on the other side. If I have an orange tree and you have an apple tree, at some point I'm going to value your apples more than my oranges, and you will value my oranges more than your apples. REQUIREMENTS: Ownership = Control = the right to trade it. Property rights and its legal registration must exist. The agents must know who owns what. If two agents own the same thing, some system must exist to resolve conflicts. RULES: 1) Right to refuse. One person can propose a trade and another person can refuse or counter propose. If no trade occurs, neither is worse off. If a trade does happen, by definition both parties must be happier. No third party observer is allowed to have an opinion. 2) Trade is honest. If a swap was made under false pretense or any form of coercion then no trade occurred. The swap must be undone. Compare these rules to air traffic management. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:53 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Agent-based market models I found this link on markets today: it says it is precisely the less complex systems that can be planned and the more complex systems that must develop spontaneously. Quite paradox. http://www.libertarianism.org/ex-9.html It says nothing about the invisible hand from Adam Smith, though. Do you think we have an agent-based model which explains the self-regulating nature of markets ? -J. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
What do we need with abm's when we have all those good EQUATIONS. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 4/16/2009 6:09:17 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Agent-based market models > > I found this link on markets today: it says it is precisely the less complex > systems that can be planned and the more complex systems that must develop > spontaneously. Quite paradox. > http://www.libertarianism.org/ex-9.html > > It says nothing about the invisible hand from Adam Smith, though. Do you > think we have an agent-based model which explains the self-regulating nature > of markets ? > > -J. > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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