Abduction
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"The question I'm now worried about is the facility/frequency with which cyclic graphs can be "simulated" by DAGs (which is why I implied that everywhere we think there might be a convergence to something "real" would require a monotonic parameter)"
Uh, why? For example, compilation of a recursive function to a control flow graph.
mdaniels@m2:~$ cat t.c
#include <stdbool.h> int foo(bool flag) { if (flag) foo(false); else return 0; } mdaniels@m2:~$ gcc -fdump-tree-cfg -c t.c mdaniels@m2:~$ cat t.c.011t.cfg ;; Function foo (foo, funcdef_no=0, decl_uid=1956, cgraph_uid=0, symbol_order=0) ;; 1 loops found ;; ;; Loop 0 ;; header 0, latch 1 ;; depth 0, outer -1 ;; nodes: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 ;; 2 succs { 3 4 } ;; 3 succs { 5 } ;; 4 succs { 6 } ;; 5 succs { 1 } ;; 6 succs { 1 } foo (_Bool flag) { int D.1962; <bb 2> : if (flag != 0) goto <bb 3>; [INV] else goto <bb 4>; [INV] <bb 3> : foo (0); goto <bb 5>; [INV] <bb 4> : D.1962 = 0; // predicted unlikely by early return (on trees) predictor. goto <bb 6>; [INV] <bb 5> : return; <bb 6> : <L3>: return D.1962; } From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 3:05:43 PM To: FriAM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abduction Thanks for that paper. It forced me to remember (and look up) the discussion in Pearl's book ("Causality" 2000) about the Markov assumption and latent structure reduction. Part of my reaction to John's statement about trying to find
a time series that cannot be generated by a sequential machine was a result of Pearl's discussion. The question I'm now worried about is the facility/frequency with which cyclic graphs can be "simulated" by DAGs (which is why I implied that everywhere we
think there might be a convergence to something "real" would require a monotonic parameter).
On 12/31/18 12:35 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Try this link. Now I remember that Thomas Richardson first described the > algorithm and Danks and I implemented it. > > http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?url=https://arxiv.org/pdf/1302.3599&hl=en&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm23iOsgxDPx5eHVIU1aXYbP1yc_ZA&nossl=1&oi=scholarr -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Eric Charles-2
Hi, all, Channeling Peirce is hard work, and tho Eric C. does it extremely well, I think there is one slip of the pen below. Please see larding: Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eric Charles Glen said " In all my posts, I've tried to push for "True as far as it goes" ... or "true for now, maybe not true later", "true over here but not over there", etc. " This leads me to believe that we have lost track of Peirce being a well established scientist, making contributions to several fields. "True as far as it goes" is a crappy place for a scientist's work to end, but "True as far as it goes, and let me tell you how far it goes" is a an ideal place for the the scientist to end up! That is: The progression of a series of scientific claims is often movement towards claims of exactly the type Glen mentions. Chemical X mixed with chemical Y makes chemical Z. No, that's not quite right. Chemical X mixed with three parts chemical Y makes one part chemical Z. No, that isn't quite right either, the stated reaction takes place only when we use a solution that has in it a certain amount of oxygen (oxy-gen meaning the acid-generating chemical). No, actually, oxygen isn't crucial after all, that Lavoisier has acid stuff all wrong; any solvent within a certain range of PH will do. Also, the reaction is dependent upon the addition of heat. Well, pressure works to, so let's create an equation to specify the necessary range of heat-pressure combinations. Etc. Etc. Etc. And by just such a series of discoveries (Peirce believes), the scientific method progresses us towards beliefs that are ever-more stable, and... least some of the time... towards a belief that will hold up across all potential tests. When a belief is found wanting, we call it "not true". As such, it follows, that "true" is what we call beliefs that are not be found wanting. In practice, the labeling of something as "true" is more of a bald assertion, or expression of hope, or bold conjecture, or something like that --- as in practice it cannot be an expression of having completely established the truth of the belief --- but however you want to phrase that: To believe that something is true (with a high degree of clarity about the belief) is to believe that it will ultimately not be found wanting. [NST==>We must constantly bear in mind Peirce believes that most things are random, i.e., there is no truth about them, nothing upon which opinion will converge. But where knowledge gathering systems converge that is the truth, by definition. By true, we mean, as Glen puts it when he is channeling Peirce, we do not expect to be surprised….ever…. . <==nst] To believe that it is "locally true", without further elaboration, should therefore means something like: It will not be found wanting here, and though that suggests a larger relationship to be discovered, frankly I'm comfortable not trying to figuring out what the relevant properties of "here" are. But, of course, the game of science is largely a game of being deeply unsatisfied with beliefs that we have noticed are "merely" of local utility; the science game is a quest to find the higher-order belief that connects the "locally true" beliefs into a "closer to globally true" belief.
U.S. Marine Corps On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 3:28 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by gepr
Watching Homecoming I found myself thinking, "Yes, so what's the big deal?"
On 12/31/18, 1:40 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: We're getting closer EVERY DAY! https://psi-2020.org/ Oh, and if anyone needs a charity to toss some 2018 money at: https://maps.org/ On 12/31/18 12:18 PM, Prof David West wrote: > > > "Maybe the answer is to take a fistful of magic mushrooms and listen to some Bach? " > > Always the answer! > > LSD in a sensory deprivation tank, ala Timothy Hurt in the movie Altered States, was, for me, even better. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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I don't understand what you mean? Are you asking why psychedelics are not prescribable? Or saying that their therapeutic effect is negligible?
FWIW, I haven't seen Homecoming. On January 1, 2019 11:28:28 AM PST, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: >Watching Homecoming I found myself thinking, "Yes, so what's the big >deal?" > >On 12/31/18, 1:40 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣" ><[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: > > We're getting closer EVERY DAY! > > https://psi-2020.org/ > > Oh, and if anyone needs a charity to toss some 2018 money at: > > https://maps.org/ > glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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The premise of the series is that a drug + counseling is used to mitigate PTSD symptoms, but in fact it ends-up deleting recent memories and was intended to make soldiers able to continue service.
One might argue that accumulation of emotional trauma is part of one's personality, and relieving it destroys part of a person. One might also argue that to have just one personality, developing on a contiguous timeline, is a sort of arbitrary confinement -- like living in a freezer that just keeps getting colder. I don't know what the actual risks are of MDMA. Alcohol's side effects, in terms of impairment of judgement, are already pretty dangerous. Marcus On 1/1/19, 7:23 PM, "Friam on behalf of glen" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: I don't understand what you mean? Are you asking why psychedelics are not prescribable? Or saying that their therapeutic effect is negligible? FWIW, I haven't seen Homecoming. On January 1, 2019 11:28:28 AM PST, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: >Watching Homecoming I found myself thinking, "Yes, so what's the big >deal?" > >On 12/31/18, 1:40 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣" ><[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: > > We're getting closer EVERY DAY! > > https://psi-2020.org/ > > Oh, and if anyone needs a charity to toss some 2018 money at: > > https://maps.org/ > -- glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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MDMA risks = dehydration, in part because it is usually taken in the context of frenetic physical activity like at a rave. Disinhibition can pose a secondary risk because partner selection is less discerning. Like too many drugs, long term effects / gender different effects / age different effects, are unknown because unstudied.
davew On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, at 7:46 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > The premise of the series is that a drug + counseling is used to > mitigate PTSD symptoms, but in fact it ends-up deleting recent memories > and was intended to make soldiers able to continue service. > > One might argue that accumulation of emotional trauma is part of one's > personality, and relieving it destroys part of a person. One might > also argue that to have just one personality, developing on a contiguous > timeline, is a sort of arbitrary confinement -- like living in a freezer > that just keeps getting colder. > > I don't know what the actual risks are of MDMA. Alcohol's side effects, > in terms of impairment of judgement, are already pretty dangerous. > > Marcus > > On 1/1/19, 7:23 PM, "Friam on behalf of glen" <[hidden email] > on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: > > I don't understand what you mean? Are you asking why psychedelics > are not prescribable? Or saying that their therapeutic effect is > negligible? > > FWIW, I haven't seen Homecoming. > > On January 1, 2019 11:28:28 AM PST, Marcus Daniels > <[hidden email]> wrote: > >Watching Homecoming I found myself thinking, "Yes, so what's the > big > >deal?" > > > >On 12/31/18, 1:40 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣" > ><[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> > wrote: > > > > We're getting closer EVERY DAY! > > > > https://psi-2020.org/ > > > > Oh, and if anyone needs a charity to toss some 2018 money at: > > > > https://maps.org/ > > > -- > glen > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
I agree. It reminds me of a conversation I was just having with a friend who floated the idea that Alzheimer's, in stripping away many of our mental functions, could be considered at least partly a good thing. My response was that for all the Alzheimer's patients I've had the opportunity to know (a handful personally, maybe 10 peripherally), it's been horrible to every one of them. Subsequent conversations with Renee' revealed that her colleagues bin them into 2 groups, the happy ones and the angry ones. So, perhaps the former are just fine with losing all those functions, maybe freeing them up to exist in a happy, simpler state.
The same would be true of any (treatable) condition, including PTSD. Ultimately, the decision to interfere/manipulate one's trajectory through the world depends on one's conservatism and openness to new experiences. But a fundamental flaw in individualist thought is that the decision lies solely with that one person. Because people are at least partly socially constructed (I am who I am because of the roles I play in society.), such decisions are made by the whole system. And if a PTSD sufferer has become dysfunctional in his social fabric, then that fabric makes the decision whether to treat/manipulate his trajectory. More complicated conditions might be narcissism, bipolar disorder, or Asperger's where the person is quixotic but not (really) dysfunctional and has grown into that person *with* that condition over a long haul (as opposed to a more acute event). In those situations, I'd lean more toward your latter dilemma between continuing to hone the one personality or explore some alternatives. On 1/1/19 6:46 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > The premise of the series is that a drug + counseling is used to mitigate PTSD symptoms, but in fact it ends-up deleting recent memories and was intended to make soldiers able to continue service. > > One might argue that accumulation of emotional trauma is part of one's personality, and relieving it destroys part of a person. One might also argue that to have just one personality, developing on a contiguous timeline, is a sort of arbitrary confinement -- like living in a freezer that just keeps getting colder. > > I don't know what the actual risks are of MDMA. Alcohol's side effects, in terms of impairment of judgement, are already pretty dangerous. -- ∄ uǝʃƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by Prof David West
Dave,
I realize that you (and perhaps others of our colleagues here) are Dionysians, whereas I, always, have been a stalwart Apollonian. The difference, for me, is the risk one is willing to take for a peak experience of some sort. Some people organize their lives around their vacations and holidays. I hate holidays and vacations and organize my life around a steady diet of moderate pleasure. If you see what I mean. For instance, I have never dreamed about what mushrooms might do for me. Is that a fair statement of a difference between us? Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 7:05 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abduction MDMA risks = dehydration, in part because it is usually taken in the context of frenetic physical activity like at a rave. Disinhibition can pose a secondary risk because partner selection is less discerning. Like too many drugs, long term effects / gender different effects / age different effects, are unknown because unstudied. davew On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, at 7:46 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > The premise of the series is that a drug + counseling is used to > mitigate PTSD symptoms, but in fact it ends-up deleting recent memories > and was intended to make soldiers able to continue service. > > One might argue that accumulation of emotional trauma is part of one's > personality, and relieving it destroys part of a person. One might > also argue that to have just one personality, developing on a > contiguous timeline, is a sort of arbitrary confinement -- like living > in a freezer that just keeps getting colder. > > I don't know what the actual risks are of MDMA. Alcohol's side effects, > in terms of impairment of judgement, are already pretty dangerous. > > Marcus > > On 1/1/19, 7:23 PM, "Friam on behalf of glen" > <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: > > I don't understand what you mean? Are you asking why psychedelics > are not prescribable? Or saying that their therapeutic effect is > negligible? > > FWIW, I haven't seen Homecoming. > > On January 1, 2019 11:28:28 AM PST, Marcus Daniels > <[hidden email]> wrote: > >Watching Homecoming I found myself thinking, "Yes, so what's the > big > >deal?" > > > >On 12/31/18, 1:40 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣" > ><[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> > wrote: > > > > We're getting closer EVERY DAY! > > > > https://psi-2020.org/ > > > > Oh, and if anyone needs a charity to toss some 2018 money at: > > > > https://maps.org/ > > > -- > glen > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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There's also this thing one can do called `sleeping in', which tends to increase the probability of dream memory and/or lucid dreaming, at least for me. A built-in neuroplasticity mechanism complete with psychedelic phenomena and a safety mechanism of motor system deactivation. (
On 1/2/19, 10:03 AM, "Friam on behalf of Nick Thompson" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: For instance, I have never dreamed about what mushrooms might do for me. Is that a fair statement of a difference between us? ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Sorry Nick,
I am as hardcore Apollonian as is possible. And if you organize your life around pleasure, even if moderate and consistent, it is you that are the Dionysian. davew On Wed, Jan 2, 2019, at 10:02 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Dave, > > I realize that you (and perhaps others of our colleagues here) are > Dionysians, whereas I, always, have been a stalwart Apollonian. The > difference, for me, is the risk one is willing to take for a peak > experience of some sort. Some people organize their lives around their > vacations and holidays. I hate holidays and vacations and organize my > life around a steady diet of moderate pleasure. If you see what I mean. > For instance, I have never dreamed about what mushrooms might do for me. > Is that a fair statement of a difference between us? > > Nick > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > Clark University > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Prof David West > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 7:05 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abduction > > MDMA risks = dehydration, in part because it is usually taken in the > context of frenetic physical activity like at a rave. Disinhibition can > pose a secondary risk because partner selection is less discerning. Like > too many drugs, long term effects / gender different effects / age > different effects, are unknown because unstudied. > > davew > > > On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, at 7:46 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > The premise of the series is that a drug + counseling is used to > > mitigate PTSD symptoms, but in fact it ends-up deleting recent memories > > and was intended to make soldiers able to continue service. > > > > One might argue that accumulation of emotional trauma is part of one's > > personality, and relieving it destroys part of a person. One might > > also argue that to have just one personality, developing on a > > contiguous timeline, is a sort of arbitrary confinement -- like living > > in a freezer that just keeps getting colder. > > > > I don't know what the actual risks are of MDMA. Alcohol's side effects, > > in terms of impairment of judgement, are already pretty dangerous. > > > > Marcus > > > > On 1/1/19, 7:23 PM, "Friam on behalf of glen" > > <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: > > > > I don't understand what you mean? Are you asking why psychedelics > > are not prescribable? Or saying that their therapeutic effect is > > negligible? > > > > FWIW, I haven't seen Homecoming. > > > > On January 1, 2019 11:28:28 AM PST, Marcus Daniels > > <[hidden email]> wrote: > > >Watching Homecoming I found myself thinking, "Yes, so what's the > > big > > >deal?" > > > > > >On 12/31/18, 1:40 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣" > > ><[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> > > wrote: > > > > > > We're getting closer EVERY DAY! > > > > > > https://psi-2020.org/ > > > > > > Oh, and if anyone needs a charity to toss some 2018 money at: > > > > > > https://maps.org/ > > > > > -- > > glen > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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Dave, Thou deniest me in my moment of need! Thou castest me to the wolves (eg Marcus). Why hast thou forsaken me? Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- Sorry Nick, I am as hardcore Apollonian as is possible. And if you organize your life around pleasure, even if moderate and consistent, it is you that are the Dionysian. davew On Wed, Jan 2, 2019, at 10:02 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Dave, > > I realize that you (and perhaps others of our colleagues here) are > Dionysians, whereas I, always, have been a stalwart Apollonian. The > difference, for me, is the risk one is willing to take for a peak > experience of some sort. Some people organize their lives around > their vacations and holidays. I hate holidays and vacations and > organize my life around a steady diet of moderate pleasure. If you see what I mean. > For instance, I have never dreamed about what mushrooms might do for me. > Is that a fair statement of a difference between us? > > Nick > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Prof David > West > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 7:05 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abduction > > MDMA risks = dehydration, in part because it is usually taken in the > context of frenetic physical activity like at a rave. Disinhibition > can pose a secondary risk because partner selection is less > discerning. Like too many drugs, long term effects / gender different > effects / age different effects, are unknown because unstudied. > > davew > > > On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, at 7:46 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > The premise of the series is that a drug + counseling is used to > > mitigate PTSD symptoms, but in fact it ends-up deleting recent memories > > and was intended to make soldiers able to continue service. > > > > One might argue that accumulation of emotional trauma is part of one's > > personality, and relieving it destroys part of a person. One might > > also argue that to have just one personality, developing on a > > contiguous timeline, is a sort of arbitrary confinement -- like > > living in a freezer that just keeps getting colder. > > > > I don't know what the actual risks are of MDMA. Alcohol's side effects, > > in terms of impairment of judgement, are already pretty dangerous. > > > > Marcus > > > > On 1/1/19, 7:23 PM, "Friam on behalf of glen" > > <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > I don't understand what you mean? Are you asking why > > psychedelics are not prescribable? Or saying that their therapeutic > > effect is negligible? > > > > FWIW, I haven't seen Homecoming. > > > > On January 1, 2019 11:28:28 AM PST, Marcus Daniels > > <[hidden email]> wrote: > > >Watching Homecoming I found myself thinking, "Yes, so what's > > the big > > >deal?" > > > > > >On 12/31/18, 1:40 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣" > > ><[hidden email]> > > wrote: > > > > > > We're getting closer EVERY DAY! > > > > > > https://psi-2020.org/ > > > > > > Oh, and if anyone needs a charity to toss some 2018 money at: > > > > > > https://maps.org/ > > > > > -- > > glen > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at > > cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by gepr
This bend within an already bent thread caused me to put down my screen
(aka computer in this case) and pick up the lingering paper Sunday NYT Book Review section I'd been hoarding (at the risk of it becoming fire-starter when I wasn't looking). The cover is a Surrealist drawing, nominally of a human hand with a pen, but both distorted and illuminated with many of the tropes of psychedelic imagery. I've been eyeing Michael Pollan's new(ish) book, "How to Change your Mind" for some time, but just haven't gotten a round tuit yet. Back to back, reflecting the cover imagery and title "Altered States" are two articles, the first by Michael Pollan trying to describe his approach and methodology for writing his book, and the second by Jonathan Lethem's "Fiction's Fake New Drugs", a reflection on a dozen or so fake drugs conjured by fiction writers, including catchy names like "infirmall" and "forgettal", the latter being from his own Neo-Noir detective novel of over 20 years ago: "Guns and Occasional Music". I did watch Homecoming, and Marcus' analysis is pretty close to my own. His comments reminded me of Jiddu Krishnamurti's use of the Paper Metaphor for the soul. "The soul is a like a piece of paper, each experience we have is like a fold, and the self is the collection of creases left behind." The point of trying to help people "forget" past traumas (as with PTSD) would seem to be about trying to avoid an obsessive refolding and refolding along the same crease, risking an eventual tear in the soul. I've helped to walk two old men to their death's by Alzheimer's (one my father, the other my ex-father-in-law). I've been in the general presence of a number of other's whose life-path seems to end in a wandering down that same path. As Glen points out, some Alzheimer's victims seem to go to anger while others seem to go to a mild passivity. What I was given to understand is that Alzheimer's takes away inhibitions first (or at least early) and those who might have managed their anger through repression through their lives, might be the ones who became angry without the inhibitory functions intact. I've also watched the Alzheimer's afflicted improve in their physical health or at least slow the degradation of it as their inhibitions decreased. It seems that for many, in spite of apparent agitation in some, there is a reduction of stress... as they lose their will, their acceptance (in some sense) goes up? I also agree with Glen's opinion that to the extent that an individual is created by her context, that the decision on how to "treat" (or not) these kinds of disorders is intrinsically a collective decision... whether it is a spouse or child participating in the debate and decision, or the insurance company or the medical specialists involved determining acceptable courses of action, or the larger culture supporting or inhibiting various courses of action. I was relieved of a tension I couldn't name when I first encountered the term "Neurodiverse" as an antidote to "Antisocial" or "Dysfunctional"... It didn't eliminate the utility of the other two terms, but did whittle away at what sometimes seems to be a universal diagnosis of one or the other. Just over a year ago, I lost someone close to me to suicide after having coped with the consequences of a serious brain injury over the course of 30 years. I only knew him with the brain injury. That in itself had long healed or at least scarred over, but the treatment including electroshock, the stigma, and the self-image fallout of the injury was what defined him most completely. You could say that in many ways he *was* his brain injury (or more to the point, his ECTs, his decades of medication, his self-medication through alcohol, etc.). The mind, the self, consciousness, it's a tricky thing! - Steve > I agree. It reminds me of a conversation I was just having with a friend who floated the idea that Alzheimer's, in stripping away many of our mental functions, could be considered at least partly a good thing. My response was that for all the Alzheimer's patients I've had the opportunity to know (a handful personally, maybe 10 peripherally), it's been horrible to every one of them. Subsequent conversations with Renee' revealed that her colleagues bin them into 2 groups, the happy ones and the angry ones. So, perhaps the former are just fine with losing all those functions, maybe freeing them up to exist in a happy, simpler state. > > The same would be true of any (treatable) condition, including PTSD. Ultimately, the decision to interfere/manipulate one's trajectory through the world depends on one's conservatism and openness to new experiences. But a fundamental flaw in individualist thought is that the decision lies solely with that one person. Because people are at least partly socially constructed (I am who I am because of the roles I play in society.), such decisions are made by the whole system. And if a PTSD sufferer has become dysfunctional in his social fabric, then that fabric makes the decision whether to treat/manipulate his trajectory. > > More complicated conditions might be narcissism, bipolar disorder, or Asperger's where the person is quixotic but not (really) dysfunctional and has grown into that person *with* that condition over a long haul (as opposed to a more acute event). In those situations, I'd lean more toward your latter dilemma between continuing to hone the one personality or explore some alternatives. > > On 1/1/19 6:46 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> The premise of the series is that a drug + counseling is used to mitigate PTSD symptoms, but in fact it ends-up deleting recent memories and was intended to make soldiers able to continue service. >> >> One might argue that accumulation of emotional trauma is part of one's personality, and relieving it destroys part of a person. One might also argue that to have just one personality, developing on a contiguous timeline, is a sort of arbitrary confinement -- like living in a freezer that just keeps getting colder. >> >> I don't know what the actual risks are of MDMA. Alcohol's side effects, in terms of impairment of judgement, are already pretty dangerous. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
I think this is where the misunderstanding lies. The people who experiment with nootropics (nowadays, anyway) aren't really looking for a "peak experience". I think the trend is toward the older shamanic use ... like my mom used to say about going to church on Sunday ... it's like a "shot in the arm". You imagine these druggies are looking to get high. They're not. They're looking for alternative perspective, sometimes (as in microdosing) a more "optimal" perspective, sometimes simply a jolt out of a local optimum, etc. Most of the experimenters I know are practically stoics in their discipline ... especially the fasters who fast because they believe they think more clearly and work more productively when fasting.
These chemicals are *medicine*. I assume you take medicine of some kind, yet are prejudiced against other sorts of medicine. Most of us *are* prejudicial in our choice of medicine. The trick is to know and recognize one's prejudice. On 1/2/19 9:02 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > The difference, for me, is the risk one is willing to take for a peak experience of some sort. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
I have spent my life cultivating hypnopompic and hypnogogic states...
this, which supports lucid dreaming, is my best way to access mystical states... mindfulness meditation, as I practice it, can lapse into these states if I allow it. I was put off by the drug-culture of my peers in the 60's/70's for many reasons, one might have included a strong steeping in rational/linear modes of thinking/being, in spite of an early discovery of and indulgence in lucid dreaming. I know many who identify as "evening" or "morning" people, but there is evidence that before the industrial revolution brought ubiquitous artificial light (city gas or kerosene lamps, then electric lights, now flickering TV/computer/phone screens), "segmented sleep" was the standard. It was common (almost ubiquitous?) for people to go to sleep soon after dark and then wake in the middle of the night for an hour or two of wakefulness, referred to as "Dorvielle" in French Speaking cultures or "wake-sleep", a somewhat hypnotic state (perhaps a slow slide from hypnopompia to hypnogagia and back again?). Hot climates/cultures have an alternative "segmented sleep" wherein the heat of the day is reserved for a "siesta" with both evening and early morning reserved for taking care of business when it is cooler. I think of a siesta as being somewhat lighter and more lucid-dream conducive than "night sleep". - Steve On 1/2/19 10:07 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > There's also this thing one can do called `sleeping in', which tends to increase the probability of dream memory and/or lucid dreaming, at least for me. A built-in neuroplasticity mechanism complete with psychedelic phenomena and a safety mechanism of motor system deactivation. ( > > On 1/2/19, 10:03 AM, "Friam on behalf of Nick Thompson" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: > > For instance, I have never dreamed about what mushrooms might do for me. Is that a fair statement of a difference between us? > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by gepr
Hmmm!
Of course I take drugs. I'm a diabetic for god's sake. Every day I pump myself full of artificial insulin and the preservative that keeps if fresh, "l-creosotin", a form of formaldehyde, I assume. And you are absolutely right, I don't look for some peak experience every time my insulin pump turns over. I just want to get along. I suspect that the only Dionysian diabetics are dead diabetics. So is THAT the spirit in which people take psilocybin? Is that the spirit in which people welcome the legalization of LSD? I fear I may have wronged them horribly. To be so far from a moderately happy life to want to derange one's entire experience for even only a few hours, seems like a terrible thing to me. I regard sanity as an achievement, not a state of affairs into which life naturally folds. I would no more take LSD than crumple up a piece of paper before I put it in the printer. I agree with Marcus, by the way, despite my obstructive answer, that we are dealing with a dimension here, not a dichotomy. But I do think we differ in the degree to which organize our life around the high points, rather than the mid points. And while Dave may be correct that any kind of a admission of pleasure into the equasion is technically Dionysian, I think for all practical purposes, taking pleasure in apollonian virtues of restrain, careful planning, avoidance of extremes, etc. is as Apollonian as it gets. He is correct that I am a hedonist to that extent.. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 12:04 PM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abduction I think this is where the misunderstanding lies. The people who experiment with nootropics (nowadays, anyway) aren't really looking for a "peak experience". I think the trend is toward the older shamanic use ... like my mom used to say about going to church on Sunday ... it's like a "shot in the arm". You imagine these druggies are looking to get high. They're not. They're looking for alternative perspective, sometimes (as in microdosing) a more "optimal" perspective, sometimes simply a jolt out of a local optimum, etc. Most of the experimenters I know are practically stoics in their discipline ... especially the fasters who fast because they believe they think more clearly and work more productively when fasting. These chemicals are *medicine*. I assume you take medicine of some kind, yet are prejudiced against other sorts of medicine. Most of us *are* prejudicial in our choice of medicine. The trick is to know and recognize one's prejudice. On 1/2/19 9:02 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > The difference, for me, is the risk one is willing to take for a peak experience of some sort. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Well, right, Steve. Is it fair to say that, to some extent, you have "cultivated" dreaming? I guess that's all I mean to say. I decided not to dream much. By the way, may I unfairly take you to task about one thing you said. And I quote: rational/linear modes of thinking/being, There is nothing linear about rational thought. It is intensely hierarchical. It is its hieararchical nature, not it’s linearity, that leads it astray. Because one is working in one compartment, one misses things that would be obvious to people working in a less compartmentalized way. This reminds me of the mis use of the “learning curve” metaphor. People speak of a steep learning curve as something to be feared. In fact, people who learn quickly have a steep learning curve. Your friendly metaphor police at your service, Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- I have spent my life cultivating hypnopompic and hypnogogic states... this, which supports lucid dreaming, is my best way to access mystical states... mindfulness meditation, as I practice it, can lapse into these states if I allow it. I was put off by the drug-culture of my peers in the 60's/70's for many reasons, one might have included a strong steeping in rational/linear modes of thinking/being, in spite of an early discovery of and indulgence in lucid dreaming. I know many who identify as "evening" or "morning" people, but there is evidence that before the industrial revolution brought ubiquitous artificial light (city gas or kerosene lamps, then electric lights, now flickering TV/computer/phone screens), "segmented sleep" was the standard. It was common (almost ubiquitous?) for people to go to sleep soon after dark and then wake in the middle of the night for an hour or two of wakefulness, referred to as "Dorvielle" in French Speaking cultures or "wake-sleep", a somewhat hypnotic state (perhaps a slow slide from hypnopompia to hypnogagia and back again?). Hot climates/cultures have an alternative "segmented sleep" wherein the heat of the day is reserved for a "siesta" with both evening and early morning reserved for taking care of business when it is cooler. I think of a siesta as being somewhat lighter and more lucid-dream conducive than "night sleep". - Steve On 1/2/19 10:07 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > There's also this thing one can do called `sleeping in', which tends > to increase the probability of dream memory and/or lucid dreaming, at > least for me. A built-in neuroplasticity mechanism complete with > psychedelic phenomena and a safety mechanism of motor system > deactivation. ( > > On 1/2/19, 10:03 AM, "Friam on behalf of Nick Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote: > > For instance, I have never dreamed about what mushrooms might do for me. Is that a fair statement of a difference between us? > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
I claim the answer to your 2 questions is yes. As Marcus (with the usage classes) and Steve (with behavioral "drugs") point out, the reason people engage in such things is to make their lives *better* (according to some definition of "better"). To think anything else is to risk the madness of morons like Nancy Reagan or those who think alcoholics suffer from a moral failing, rather than a physiochemical one.
You want your insulin pump to make your life better than it would be without it. Simple. Rational. As Dave pointed out, though, we have some very promising therapeutic agents that we've ignored because we've been hoodwinked by the moral proselytizing of anti-science nutbags who think like Scientologists -- Clear Body, Clear Mind and all that. On 1/2/19 11:33 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > So is THAT the spirit in which people take psilocybin? Is that the spirit in which people welcome the legalization of LSD? I fear I may have wronged them horribly. To be so far from a moderately happy life to want to derange one's entire experience for even only a few hours, seems like a terrible thing to me. I regard sanity as an achievement, not a state of affairs into which life naturally folds. I would no more take LSD than crumple up a piece of paper before I put it in the printer. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Nick wrote, in relevant part,
> This reminds me of the misuse of the "learning curve" > metaphor. People speak of a steep learning curve as something to be > feared. In fact, people who learn quickly have a steep learning curve. Behold, complete with ASCII art (so be ready to view this in a monospaced font, or forever hold your peace), an ancient USENET post of mine to alt.usage.english, from 1995 (!): ===begin=== Robert L Rosenberg ([hidden email]): >: A learning curve should be the graph of a non-decreasing function (time >: on the horizontal axis, knowledge of the topic on the vertical axis). A >: fast learner would have a generally steeper learning curve than a slow >: learner. At least that's the way I've always pictured it. [hidden email] (Keith Ivey) writes: >I agree that this makes sense, but it doesn't seem to correspond with >the way the phrase is used. In my experience, something that is hard >to learn is said to have a steep learning curve. Rosenberg's explanation not only makes sense, it accords with the original use by rat-runners and other operant conditioners (cf., e.g., _Psychology_ by James D. Laird and Nicholas S. Thompson, p. 164: "The ... steeper the curve, the faster the animal is learning"). More precisely, *during an interval of time where the curve is steep, the animal is learning quickly*. The present use is muddled; as Ivey points out, "something that is hard to learn is said to have a steep learning curve." Here's how I unmuddle it (but I don't know what, if anything, is going on in the heads of most people who use the phrase): by the Mean Value Theorem, or common intuition, if a (smooth) nondecreasing function f(t) with f(0)=0 and f(1)=1 is "steep" (has large derivative) somewhere, then it MUST be "flat" (have small derivative) somewhere else. Typical learning curves (I gather from the illustrations in Laird and Thompson) look either like Figure A or like Figure B: x o x x o x x o x o o o x o FIGURE A FIGURE B In the first case, you learn almost everything in a short period of time near the beginning of the training, then reach a plateau and learn the rest very slowly. In the second case, you learn very slowly for a long time, then take off near the end of the training. So the question is reduced to another one: which of Figures A and B is a "steep" curve to the average speaker? Lee Rudolph ===end=== ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Learning curves (was, Abduction)
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Figure B is how R&D works, and Figure A describes a good student.
On 1/2/19, 2:32 PM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote: Nick wrote, in relevant part, > This reminds me of the misuse of the "learning curve" > metaphor. People speak of a steep learning curve as something to be > feared. In fact, people who learn quickly have a steep learning curve. Behold, complete with ASCII art (so be ready to view this in a monospaced font, or forever hold your peace), an ancient USENET post of mine to alt.usage.english, from 1995 (!): ===begin=== Robert L Rosenberg ([hidden email]): >: A learning curve should be the graph of a non-decreasing function (time >: on the horizontal axis, knowledge of the topic on the vertical axis). A >: fast learner would have a generally steeper learning curve than a slow >: learner. At least that's the way I've always pictured it. [hidden email] (Keith Ivey) writes: >I agree that this makes sense, but it doesn't seem to correspond with >the way the phrase is used. In my experience, something that is hard >to learn is said to have a steep learning curve. Rosenberg's explanation not only makes sense, it accords with the original use by rat-runners and other operant conditioners (cf., e.g., _Psychology_ by James D. Laird and Nicholas S. Thompson, p. 164: "The ... steeper the curve, the faster the animal is learning"). More precisely, *during an interval of time where the curve is steep, the animal is learning quickly*. The present use is muddled; as Ivey points out, "something that is hard to learn is said to have a steep learning curve." Here's how I unmuddle it (but I don't know what, if anything, is going on in the heads of most people who use the phrase): by the Mean Value Theorem, or common intuition, if a (smooth) nondecreasing function f(t) with f(0)=0 and f(1)=1 is "steep" (has large derivative) somewhere, then it MUST be "flat" (have small derivative) somewhere else. Typical learning curves (I gather from the illustrations in Laird and Thompson) look either like Figure A or like Figure B: x o x x o x x o x o o o x o FIGURE A FIGURE B In the first case, you learn almost everything in a short period of time near the beginning of the training, then reach a plateau and learn the rest very slowly. In the second case, you learn very slowly for a long time, then take off near the end of the training. So the question is reduced to another one: which of Figures A and B is a "steep" curve to the average speaker? Lee Rudolph ===end=== ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Well, did you pay your tithes last month????
It is really kind of silly to think that one can either characterize oneself, or be characterized by others, as Dionysian or Apollonian. the concept has become so mucked up since Nietzsche used the notions to define tragedy (a folly of his youth). The absurd overlay / infusion of Islamo-Judeo-Christo morality delivered a death blow to the whole idea.
In Greek Philosophy ones behavior (and thoughts if you want to allow such) were grounded in complex blend of the the two traits; and consequently everyone was "ambiguous" with regard to them. The intolerance of ambiguity among the People of the Book and most of Western culture, keeps trying to push for a two valued logic which is not useful.
If you want to use the terms as metaphors, Apollonian vs. Dionysian could correspond to 1) cortex vs. amygdala; or 2) right-brain vs. left-brain. Everyone knows that any behavior is simultaneously grounded in both elements, but to an observer, including an internal one, any given behavior might seem to be predominantly influenced by one or the other.
My claim to "Apollonian" is grounded in a long ago commitment to following the precepts of Jinyana (Jnana) Yoga. first in Vedic literature, the Buddhism and Taoism — Ch'an Buddhism --> Zen. I strive to make all of my behavior deliberate and intentional within a meta-rational and meta-logical context, utilizing the cortex / left-brain as a filter. If you ever read Korzibski, there echos in my head of his "cortico-thalamic pause."
Feel free to reduce the preceding mumbo-jumbo to: its all behavior, and each behavior is grounded in the complexity of the whole organism.
davew
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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