A question for your Roboteers out there

[Carl Tollander]

Thanks Vladimyr!   I've often felt that the cognitive process you describe is analogous to extended dynamic range operations a la http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/high-dynamic-range.htm .

Sampling notions also come to the fore when learning a language (or a new music).   A beginner often overconcentrates on memorizing details and micro-sequences, similar to your example of the reader trying to apprehend one letter at a time.   A turnaround occurs when the student figures out they can sample and form multiple abstractions dynamically just below the level of conscious inner dialog and stitch those mental models together depending on circumstance, more or less in real time.   The more advanced students become continuously "poised to integrate", somewhat like a jazz musician or a programmer "in the zone".   One also has to learn how to do this when acquiring certain post-positional languages (e.g. Japanese), since most of the sentences are successively building up context and the verbs that pull it all together happen at the end.  You have to take care not to pre-specify the initial conditions.  One starts thinking about grammars a little differently.

Here in Santa Fe, the local shamans may refer to this as "seeing in the dark" and they have ways of delegating this kind of dynamic-range abstraction and stitching to pre-conscious mechanisms.   I reserve judgment on whether we are quite talking about the same kind of thing, but based on what you say it seems doable for senses other than just the visual.    I do feel these kinds of processes are dynamic and ephemeral; contra the 1980's AI folks (I were one and worked on vision and terrain models and sensor integration stuff for various government robotics projects), it's currently harder to believe that we invest much energy in establishing and maintaining persistent logically consistent models.

Carl

PS While I appreciate the "Gentlemen", I trust that leaves more than a few of us out.

On 2/9/11 10:51 AM, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote:

Gentlemen,

 

There may be another consideration to include in the Mind and its internal mental models and the components we refer to as images.

 

The fovea of the eye has recently been described as having an inner densely packed region of cone cells very much smaller than previously  described(a Microfovea).

The eyes are capable of very rapid microscopic scanning, to perch an edge just over these cells. The high speed twitch was discovered when investigating certain reading disorders. Apparently accomplished readers could scan a sentence and using the fine twitch( I’ll dig up the reference in a few days) The expert  reader was able to scan an entire sentence at one pass and input the entire string(The eye moves from left to right but is simultaneously twitching at a very high frequency while still steadily progressing to the right  (A single letter or entire word could be balanced upon the micrfovea twitching so that more Pixels  so to speak are collecting data) .Some would call this a form of adaptive optics as used in astronomy.  Those that were unable to do this were deliberately scanning one letter at a time and attempting to build up each word letter by letter and word by word to gain the sentence. A horribly tedious task and not one I can imagine facilitating reading Novels. These people pass all typical vision testing.  The point of this anecdote is that the mental images are not simple two dimensional and the observer is performing some other task besides opening his eyes. The observer is adjusting his eyes and stance to collect a multiplicity of images and different focal lengths and from different references. The mental image of the object is extraordinarily complex. So simple images comparison may not be adequate when describing thought at the preliminary stages. The multiple focal lengths, apertures, and the fact that images are scanned across the retina in a number of patterns suggests that the observer is indeed sampling the environment which was a key point on one side or other of the cognitivists debate.  The way the brain is evaluating each image and eliciting further sequences of images with slight adjustments is unlike simple photography.

 

The collection of visual data is probably more complex than smell or touch, and It may seem that the act of collecting visual data is itself the earliest evidence of a mind in operation. I suspect that the need for studying an image is the need to find patterns within the image that are familiar with those already in memory. Pattern recognition. Hunting for edges and shadows perhaps geometric primitives as well. So the thinking process starts at the first moment of observation . The later forms of thinking seem to be more like reflection and are less active and require less physical participation. Not many individuals are aware of what their eyes are doing when doing simple tasks but they are highly engaged.

 

If some meaning is associated with individual images ( where the edges lay next to each other, the edges become some it) , then the cascade of images may in some manner be building a small narrative. I am here , it is there, the sun is over there the wind comes from there and my dog is running after the white rabbit. ( Simple propositions for a collection of its and whether they are moving or not) Later reflection adds more detail the breed of dog, the species of rabbit, North South, The name of the mountain range, the state or province( Perhaps causality is introduced at this point correctly or incorrectly). The narrator of his experience requires language at some later state to put into order all the ancillary information correctly for sharing with others. Perhaps he builds the primitive narrative simply to store for easier recall ( he may well be a scientific witness or an emotional hedonist). Reflection seems pretty far down the line and may only be required to update minor details. As The narrative must be open and available for amendments or combination with other such holiday experiences. For instance the date and time would be added later so that it can be sequenced with other narratives in order to be an engaging guest at a beer festival for instance. The narrative may be the only choice for storage. It seems that the specific language of the speaker only enters after the simple propositions are created.  The simple propositions come closest to being modelled with notation , the complex narrative requires considerably more elaboration and then introduces ambiguity.

 

Correct me where I stray off . But it seems that the Mind we wish to construct has much to do with Cinematography concepts. That implies much editing .

 

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD

 

 

[hidden email]

 

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2

Canada

 (204) 2548321 Land

(204) 8016064  Cell

 

 

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
Sent: February-08-11 6:42 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A question for your Roboteers out there

 

Eric, You wrote, paraphrasing Gibson,

 

that there was no easy distinction between exteroception and proprioception).

 

Yes BUT….

 

Some of that information from the world is more useful to predicting what I am going to do and other information is more useful for predict what other things are going to do.  I agree with JimL’s point that simple navigation at sea can be pursued in an egocentric manner, but as the Hutchins book makes clear, precious little in navy navigation is actually done that way. 

 

Nick

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ERIC P. CHARLES
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 5:32 PM
To: Vladimyr Burachynsky
Cc: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A question for your Roboteers out there

 

I'm not sure whether it matters to this discussion, but James Gibson (famous perceptual researcher) claimed there was no information about the world that was not information about the self (or in psych-parlance, that there was no easy distinction between exteroception and proprioception). Perception of "the orientation of a surface," for example, is always perception of "where I am," similarly perception of "me falling" is also the perception of "the ground moving towards my head."

Eric


On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 05:06 PM, "Vladimyr Burachynsky" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jochen said"  "information about the system itself" and  

"information about  

other things" is the point where self-awareness begins "  

Perhaps this thought is perhaps a little overly compacted. Information about  

self does not require language, indeed awareness of the outside world does  

not require language. If both are in place language does not arise  

automatically.  It does seem that a model of the world mapped out of  

perceptions must exist and another symbolic map linking all images of  

reality to meanings and to verbal symbols most also be in place.   

There is still a lot of wiggle room about when self awareness  emerges.  I  

am going to assume no human being is born knowing the language of it's  

parents. That requires that an individual interact to begin learning the  

things in its environment and the symbolic sounds and meanings. So the most  

complex brain on the planet spends some 2 or more decades learning languages  

bit by bit. Perhaps self awareness is a continuum not an actual object.  

Through language games the individual constantly redefines the state of self  

awareness.   

That machine Mind we are hypothesizing apparently inherits the complete  

library of outside things as well as the libraries of symbols and meanings  

and does not require the prolonged tutoring of humans. This is actually a  

very radical concept with some very peculiar consequences i.e. An entity  

that requires no childhood or social connections yet is fully capable of  

communicating with every other member immediately. I suspect that such  

entities would not actually be social entities. They may be coldly  

indifferent or exploitative of each other. Also these entities would not  

have the ability to adapt should the environment change quickly.   

If it is not already defined in all the relevant libraries , It seems to  

have no means of extension according to the preliminary model we are playing  

with.    

\That does not seem to be what any of us had in mind when the discussion  

started. It seems that to be what we call self aware it must exist in a  

society and be able to also distinguish its thoughts from those of others.  

That difference in individuals must also be attached to some kind of  

motivation such as curiosity in order for them to exchange information. That  

requires the Natural learning method that was assumed no longer useful?  

 with a requirement for information exchange and some socialization from  

childhood the entities enjoy learning or so it would appear. So why do  

humans resist Learning after some period of time.? Was there a failure  

introduced by accident?  

VIB  

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD  

[hidden email]  

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.  

Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2  

Canada   

 (204) 2548321 Land  

(204) 8016064  Cell  

-----Original Message-----  

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf  

Of Jochen Fromm  

Sent: February-06-11 3:25 AM  

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A question for your Roboteers out there  

Hi Nick,  

I would say language is the key, it is useful if the robot understands  

language. A robot usually cannot recognize or perceive itself, if it is not  

able to understand language.  

In animals, information about the system itself is so important that it is  

usually processed and controlled by an own system, the limbic system and the  

autonomic nervous system, or in other words, largely by emotions.  

So "information about the system itself" is processed by the limbic  

system,  

and "information about other things" by the cerebral cortex.  

If robots are able to understand things  

through language, then the point where  

they start to distinguish "information about the system itself" and  

"information about other things" is the point where self-awareness  

begins.  

To know the self means to know where the self ends, and where the rest of  

the world begins.  

-J.  

----- Original Message -----  

From: Nicholas Thompson  

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  

Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:29 PM  

Subject: [FRIAM] A question for your Roboteers out there  

At what point in the complexity of a robot (or any other control  

system)  

does it begin to seem useful to parse input into "information about the  

system itself" and "information about other things"?  

Nick  

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Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

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[Vladimyr Burachynsky]

Jochen , Greetings
 and Ladies and Gentlemen as well,

If I believe that the team has a spirit I seem to act differently. It may
not have any at all but that does not change my belief and my behaviour.
When I act out my delusion and find others that enjoy it as much as I, we
seem to march down the field with lighter hearts. The people in the audience
see this change in our appearance and attribute it to the Geist. We hear the
cheers and we are further emboldened. And soon others join in the march. It
seems so real to all of us that the Geist becomes Teamgeist. It has a name
now perhaps a flag as well. Once it is named we believe it to be more real,
for our grammar never gives names to the non existent or does it?

Egypt is a study in Mental Constructs and the Symbolic clashing with the
Real.  

\It is as if the birds in the flock are aware of themselves as a group as
never before. They see themselves, they communicate directly with each
other , they see the  group, they have a complete memory  and understand the
fact that some had exploited them in the past because of the former  lack of
coherence. There have always been individuals that felt they were entitled
to be leaders and their role was to control others for their personal gains.
The Tahrir protestors seem to be trying to assert themselves and liberate
themselves from the domination of "the entitled to rule class of
psychopaths".

Can the Flock get a TeamGeist strong enough to eliminate it's oppressors?

Bertrand Russell said that it was impossible for the rational to defeat the
irrational, what was required was a new form of irrational  more powerful
than the present. I think he was implying that men must believe in something
greater than their opposition, some kind of Faith of extraordinary strength
was to lead them through the conflicts.

I think Humanity is witnessing a new history unfold before our eyes.

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD


[hidden email]

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.
Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2
Canada
 (204) 2548321 Land
(204) 8016064  Cell






-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: February-10-11 3:50 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A question for your Roboteers out there

Interesting observation, yes I think what we call self aware exists in some
form in a society, too. Everything which represents the society can lead to
some form of self-awareness in the society, for example a sports team in a
world cup or an army in a war which shows certain positive or desired
attitudes. A kind of collective consciousness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_consciousness

A team, whether a sports team, an organization, or an army, can have a "team
spirit" (in German "Teamgeist"). If the person which seems to embody this
team spirit acts for the whole group in some form of competition or
election, this can lead to some kind of  self-awareness, if the actions are
discussed or celebrated afterwards. If the people of a country start to
discuss their own president (see Egypt), the society becomes aware of itself
to a certain degree. Don't you think?

Self-awareness is a bit like a controversial election after a revolution:
an elation accompanied by obfuscation, a kind of entrancement which causes
puzzlement. Or is it?

-J.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vladimyr Burachynsky" <[hidden email]>
To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A question for your Roboteers out there
>
> [..] It seems that to be what we call self aware it must exist in a
> society and be able to also distinguish its thoughts from those of others.


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives,
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[Russell Gonnering]

I received a request from a physician in Iran for current texts in my field. His plea was touching:

> I know that , as  a junior physician, I have no right to bother  a senior surgeon, but asking for your kind help was my last chance. I practice in a remote area of W.Azarbaijan , Iran , close to  Iran - Iraq border zone . As the sole medical facility in region , we have to practice all branches of  surgery here . A majority of our patients are oculofacial reconstructive and oculoplastics  cases .   Most of our patients are poor and unable to pay even our  negligible visit fee .  
>
> Also I am far from medical colleges , libraries and professors in Iran, my sole consultants are my books and journals  . On the  other hand ,  my low income and embargo on Iranian Banks as a result of nuclear dispute does not allow me to buy  all my needed books.


I can send him some of the books he has asked for, but that does not solve the underlying problem, which is duplicated all around the world.  Although the number of "open access" journals and books is increasing, they still are inadequate for specialized needs such as this. All publishing throughout the world is done digitally, and this knowledge is already in digital format. Can anyone think of how we can get that information to people like this, and still preserve the profit motive that is necessary for publishers to continue to operate??

The problem is not one of hardware or internet access.  It is not one of lack of digitization of the information.  The problem is how to devise a new business plan that looks at information as the means, and not the end.  Steven Denning recounts his efforts at the World Bank to give away information as an expendable.  Information, at least in medicine, is still looked at as power.  In reality, the ability to "situate a network" is where the power is heading.  Publishing houses and journals need to turn a profit on some other item of value, but how to make the network something of value when now it is not even appreciated?

Russ Gonnering  ("Russ #3)

Russell Gonnering, MD, MMM, FACS, CPHQ
[hidden email]
www.emergenthealth.net





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